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2016 Presidential Election Discussion Thread

Next President?  

48 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. Vote for your choice for the next President of the United States

    • Hillary Clinton
    • Donald Trump
    • Gary Johnson
    • Jill Stein

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Business is up. Jobs are up. Local donut shop just did a 3 million add on and tells me they need ppl bad. I don't expect miracles in a year. 

I'm good.

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My 401k is up a lot and hopefully we'll get some tax relief soon so I'm good. I'm not thrilled with healthcare and wish they would have done something. For 2018 our family plan from my employer is a little worse with the deductibles and co-insurance stuff. Now I need to get a health savings account. I used to have great healthcare with this company, $25 co-pay for doctors visits and that's it. It's gotten worse every year since obamacare and rates have gone up.

Just to put the medical into perspective I have 2 kids, 3 years old and 10 years old and when my 10 year old was born we paid $250 out of pocket, but when my 3 year was born it was $6000 out of pocket. Regular Doctor visits went from a $25 co-pay to you pay the co-insurance rate which is $80-100. And this is employer sponsored healthcare. If this administration can fix this BS, I'll be happy camper. 

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Good  luck if you think the  GOP   and  tRump's " tax cuts" are going to  put  any  more  money in your  pocket  unless you  are  part of the 1%.

I'll take  our  Canadian  single payer  healthcare  system.  Paid  for through taxes that  cost us  far  less than any plan  in the  US.  No  co-pay,  we  choose our  doctor,  no exclusions  for  pre-existing  conditions  and  no caps. It's not perfect  by  any  means , but everyone is covered and  nobody  has to go  broke  because they  had  the  audacity  to  have a  child or get  sick or  injured.

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I agree with your health coverage 100% Dave. 

As for the tax thing, something needed changed. Good or bad for who, we'll see but at least something is changing.


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 America needs to do  is go back to the  tax regime  of the  '50's where  corporations  and  the rich  needed   to reinvest in their  companies and charities ( " social programs"  were never  mentioned as  such  because  of military / industrial propaganda demonizing  anything "social" with the dreaded   Communism  and  Socialism  of the  time)

I'm  afraid  anyone  looking for  the  GOP  tax  cuts  to be   good  for  those in the  middle  and lower  incomes is  going to  be  sadly disappointed. Removing  the  controls on lenders  and cutting  taxes on the big business and the  1% is  going to  lead to the  deficits  ballooning and another big  crash  such as was  caused by  Reagan's  "trickle down "  voodoo economics .

America  needs to  invest in education, healthcare and infrastructure. It  certainly doesn't  need  another  big  jump in military  spending  and  tax breaks  for the rich;  neither  of  which  do  a  thing  for the well being of  the  population.

Without  education  to  develop  and  use the technology and  new  products  or  the infrastructure  to  carry those goods to  market Americans  are going to  keep  falling  behind as they  see  the  advances  others  are  making.  What  good  are  new  stealth  military  aircraft  when  bridges  are  falling  down and streets  are  crumbling?

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On 11/1/2016 at 1:09 AM, JustRandy said:

He reminds me of Hoover with the talk of tariffs right at the top of a stock market bubble:

When the Wall Street Crash of 1929 struck less than eight months after he took office, Hoover tried to combat the ensuing Great Depression in the United Stateswith large-scale government public works projects such as the Hoover Dam, and calls on industry to keep wages high. He reluctantly approved the Smoot–Hawley Tariff, which sent foreign trade spiralling down. He believed it was essential to balance the budget despite falling tax revenue, so he raised the tax rates. The economy kept falling and unemployment rates rose to about 25%. This downward spiral, plus his support for prohibition policies that had lost favor, set the stage for Hoover's overwhelming defeat in 1932 by Democrat Franklin D. Roosevelt, who promised a New Deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover

Lots of familiar talk comparing with Trump.

Trump = Hoover? ;)



Time to party like it's 1929 🤑


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It is interesting to see what the DOW is doing. I think there are some influences in the market and some corrections taking place. Overall, 2017 was too good of a year for investors and 401Ks. We'll see what happens this week. My tax deductions must have gone down because got more in my paycheck last week 🤑

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Its hard for me to see the impact of the tax change because I changed from hourly to salary, and now I get paid every 2 weeks. 

My 401k and other retirement plans have been doing awesome.



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On 1/20/2017 at 4:03 PM, davefrombc said:

Now time will  tell   if  I  get to say   "I told you so".. I  sincerely  hope I'm  wrong and  he  proves to be  a good President,  but to say  I'm skeptical  would be putting it very mildly.

You were right Dave, Trump is a moron with room-temp IQ.  I don't think I ever really liked Trump (except in the 1980s before he filed his first of many bankruptcies), but the problem was Hillary.  Whoever put Hillary on the ticket is responsible for Trump.  Bernie would have wiped the floor with the orange mop stick.

Although a Trump vote was originally a Not-Hillary vote, now I believe his supporters would eat shit sandwiches if he told them to.  The more dumbassery he dispatches, the more they dig in with blind loyalty making his actions completely irrelevant to their reverence.  The pushback from the left just fuels their determination (cognitive dissonance) and the Twitter shadowbanning gives them a common enemy to rally with Trump against.  The left should backoff and just let the idiots be idiots so there is no enemy to fight.  Without the enemy (the establishment), his supporters might realize Trump isn't their friend (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). 

One thing I certainly hate about the left is their desire to ban and censor everyone.  If an ideology is ridiculous, then why censor it???  Prohibition only strengthens their resolve and adds allure to their ideas.

He has accomplished a couple things I'll applaud him for: getting us out of the climate change bs and pardoning that woman serving life for a drug charge, but just about everything else was idiotic, in particular: the tax cuts for the rich in exchange for nothing, the tariffs, and appointment of goofball Gorsuch who broke the tie which resulted in a 5-4 vote for internet sales tax (a tax on the poor) and he voted for warrant-less searches of cellphones, but luckily he was outvoted 5-4. 

Now that more republicans have infested the gov, we can expect to lose more freedoms along with our wallets.  For instance in GA, it's now illegal to touch a cellphone while driving, giving the policestate yet more power to persecute otherwise peaceful people for the collection of revenue instead of focusing on catching real criminals as a service to the community.  Enforcement of VICE has relegated cops to mainly being a gang of armed clergy terrorizing society that the public is quickly losing respect for.

Overall, Trump is a complete disaster just as you predicted.

Noam Chomsky: Republican Party is the most dangerous organisation in human history

I can kinda see that.  Mostly because it presents itself as an angel of light, but advocates death, war, imprisonment, and persecution of the poor and sick, which is anti-christ-esque and hypocritical to the christ they profess to worship.

2 Cor 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Any conservative would shoot a sick dog, but a stage-4 cancer patient must be kept alive to prolong suffering, however, sell drugs and they advocate the death penalty.  Of course they're against socialized healthcare: being armed is a right, but healthcare is not.  Handouts and bailouts are ok for the rich, but not for the poor.

Corp tax cuts went straight into stock buybacks while the ceos sold their shares, which is surreptitious embezzlement of company money.  https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-26/sec-may-want-take-look-facebook-insiders-dumped-41-billion-stock-scandal

If the stock market is indicative of the economy, then socialist Venezuela is really kicking ass https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/stock-market

Candidate Trump said the stock market was a huge bubble.  President Trump is using it as a measuring stick for his performance.

Candidate Trump said the employment numbers were bs (they are and it was one of the things I liked about Trump).  Now he's taking credit for the gains he had nothing to do with.

He's a pathological liar, flip flopper (would/wouldn't), narcissist, incredibly stupid, and an embarrassment to the country.

On the bright side, when this is over, republicans will probably go extinct with the Boomers as the Millennials take charge.  Before FDR came Hoover (Trump 1.0, but smarter since Hoover was actually self-made instead of riding on daddy's coattails like Trump).

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Two things I disagree with you  on ..1) Climate  change  accelerated by human activity is not  BS. It is a  proven  fact.  The storms and record  breaking temperatures ( including the record  cold and snows  in the  north-east the last   couple of winters) . The floods and fires  in various countries as the weather  patterns and jet stream shift  are  a result  of the  change .. It  may not  be   as apparent  in parts of the  southern States as it is in the  north ( and the farther north you go  the more apparent it  is ). 2) The cell phone ban  while driving is a good thing. Recent statistics everywhere  cell phone  users use their phones while driving  have shown  it  is  more dangerous  than driving  over .05 ( or .08).  We have a total  ban  on any hand held  electronics  while driving  here , but unfortunately  still  see  to  many  cases  where  that  damn  phone in the hand  and the inattention to  driving it  causes has resulted  in  collisions,  from  minor  fender benders  to  fatalities. They  allow hands free  calling  here where  use of  voice calling  and blue tooth ear  pieces are  used, and even  that  has occasionally been  cited for reduced attention. Fines  for distracted  driving via  cell phone  use  are quite  steep  here ,  but still  far too  many  are  addicted  to doing it.  If  you don't see  many examples  of  cell phone related  distracted  driving and accidents where  you  are  , you  are in  either  a very  lightly populated  area  for traffic or  you  just haven't been  paying attention to  just  how  much of it  is going  on.  I  have had too  many  close  calls  here by  fools on their  cell. Mine stays  in my  pocket while  driving.  I  can  call  back to  anyone who  phones while  I am  behind the  wheel,  and  I can  pull over  out of traffic and stop   if  I  need to  make a  call.

Yes ,  anti-Hillary sentiments  also  played a  large  part in tRump's vote count .  Not so  much because she was unqualified  for the  job or for any "illegal"  things  she  and  Bill  have done in the  past ..  The  biggest  part  of the  anti-Hillary sentiments are   a direct  result  of the  GOP  and their  ERW specifically  spending  years  of  character assassination  and trying to  find  something illegally  done to  pin  on the  Clintons, with spectacular  lack  of success  despite millions spend  doing so. The dislike  for Hillary was (is) partly  due  to  a perceived arrogance in her but  largely  to the  years  of lies and character  assassination  by  a  GOP  that  feared the  Clintons and  a  Democratic  win.  Do  I think   the  Dems could have  fielded a better  candidate with  far  less baggage ?  you  bet.  I don't think  Bernie would  have been the  one ..  He  is too  far  left for too  many  Americans fed  with   a  constant   barrage of  "anti - socialist" propaganda.

  I  take no  pleasure  in telling  American that  will  listen   "I told you so" . I'm  still  amazed that tRump  ( or as  some in another forum  I'm  in call  him  "IQ45" for his position on the  Presidential  succession and  his stupidity seeming to  match in numbers) still commands support  by about  1/3  of Americans  and far  higher support  among the  GOP.  The  latter  may be  because of the fear  of losing control  if they  actually  voiced opposition to  him  and  his cabinet of despicables.  As  a  friend  from  tRumps great  enemy,,  Canada,  I  hope  Mueller soon  comes up  with the evidence  to  move the  great orange  wonder  from the  White  House to the  Big House; but then he would be  replaced  by  Pence. Sorry ,  he  is a  lot  smarter  politically, but  I don't see him   as   much of an  improvement  for the  good  of  America.

I  think the  mid terms are going to  make for some "interesting"  developments in the  political  landscape  down  your  way .

Edited by davefrombc

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54 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Climate  change  accelerated by human activity is not  BS. It is a  proven  fact. 

LOL I figured you'd latch onto that one.  Ok, demonstrate/illustrate to me how a molecule comprising 0.04% of the atmosphere can have a meaningful impact on the temperature of earth independent/instead of the effects produced by changes of temperature of the giant fire we're orbiting around which could hold 1 million earths in its volume.  If you can do that, then I will say you are right just like you were right about Trump.   I'm perfectly happy to be wrong since I'm only interested in the truth.

You can't appeal to authority on this because in order to judge an authority, you must be an authority... and if you are an authority then you don't need to appeal to another one, but instead you could explain it to me simply. 

You also have to take into account that IR light contains 48x less energy than UV light and about 24x less energy than visible.  Use this page to brush up https://ozonedepletiontheory.info/primary-problem-with-GG.html

The theory goes that visible light passes unimpeded through the atmosphere and warms the earth, then IR is re-radiated back outward, but is absorbed by co2 instead of heading into space, making co2 effectively a high-pass filter.

Then the co2 re-radiates the IR in all directions (including into space as well as back to earth).

Show me how this low-energy IR that is radiated half into space and half towards earth by a molecule that comprises a mere 0.04% of the atmosphere can have a meaningful and significant effect on temperature and do so without appealing to authorities whose merit you're not qualified to judge.

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

The storms and record  breaking temperatures

Sure, the earth may be warming, but that doesn't mean co2 is the cause.  Honestly, I think it's an effect.  When the earth warms, animals are more active and they produce co2.  That explains the lag in co2 behind increase in temps found in ice cores.  Most likely it's solar cycles or perhaps something else in the galaxy.  The earth is really small in comparison to our galactic neighborhood.

If any gas is the culprit, why not ozone/oxygen with high-energy UV rays?  Seems more sensible.  Maybe fluctuations in the earth's magnetic field can have an effect on the amount of solar radiation.  There are a lot of things more significant than co2.

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

The cell phone ban  while driving is a good thing.

Well, then a ban on eating while driving would also be a good thing.  Where are we going to draw the line?  It's just another reason to be harassed by the gang in blue looking for drugs or property to seize or any other form of revenue generation instead of using their time to fight real crimes.  We already have a law against texting while driving and our freedoms are being eroded in the name of security which is a slippery slope to loss of identity.  I'd rather be free and risk death than to be safe and have no freedom of choice.

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

I  have had too  many  close  calls  here by  fools on their  cell.

Yeah, me too, but they were texting, not talking.  There's no reason you can't hold a phone to your head while talking and driving without losing attention for the road.  If so, then you shouldn't be driving anyway due to some neurological handicap.  Remember car phones?  What about CB radios?

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:


I call him IQ95 as I believe that to be accurate.  

Assuming my sample was representative, we can conclude that Trump’s performance was at the 35th percentile of North American whites in Trump’s age group, which equates to an IQ of 94 (white norms) or about 96 (U.S. norms).  https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/08/06/did-i-overestimate-trumps-iq/

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

The dislike  for Hillary was (is) partly  due  to  a perceived arrogance in her but  largely  to the  years  of lies and character  assassination  by  a  GOP

Maybe you're right, idk, I just know no one liked her.  Dad's sentiments were that the Clintons and Bushes were dynastic and needed to fade off into history.  She stepped aside for Obama and this was supposed to be "her turn" and there was shenanigans involved with getting her on the ticket instead of Bernie, which caused a loss of enthusiasm among the youth voters (yawn, another centrist).


1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

I don't think  Bernie would  have been the  one ..  He  is too  far  left for too  many  Americans fed  with   a  constant   barrage of  "anti - socialist" propaganda.

I wholeheartedly disagree.  Most folks feel the barrage is that of socialist propaganda emanating from the universities (for good reason if you ask me).  Bernie was inspirational to the youth.  Look at the success of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old former Bernie Sanders organizer, has defeated Democratic incumbent Rep. Joe Crowley, the fourth-ranking Democrat in the House.  Ocasio-Cortez won the race for New York’s 14th Congressional District with a substantial margin over Crowley. The Bronx native, who has not previously run for elected office, is the first primary challenge Crowley has seen in 14 years.  https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/historic-upset-28-year-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-unseats/story?id=56188380

Check out Stacey Abrams running for governor of Georgia.  A black woman... in GA!  And she's giving the gun-totin hillybilly a run for his money too!

If the dems run another centrist they may as well hand Trump the presidency.  This country is polarized and only a socialist can beat the knucklehead because we need the youth to beat the old farts in numbers.

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

The  latter  may be  because of the fear  of losing control  if they  actually  voiced opposition to  him  and  his cabinet of despicables.

It's cognitive dissonance.  You know people can't admit they are wrong.


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I won't begin to try  to explain  how CO2  and methane released,  as well  as  deforestation, all  from  human  activity contribute to the  global warming we see now . Especially  when  you  ignore the overwhelming evidence   presented  by the scientific  community to  believe  the  blabber  of the few that  deny  the  facts. When  you look  into the  background  of some  of  the deniers  in the scientific community  , you too  often  find they  are closely associated  with Big  oil and  other  industries that  are  heavy  producers of pollutants.  I also  can't  convince  you  or  present  any  better evidence than that shown by  accident statistics involving  hand held electronic device...  Cell  phones are  the  overwhelming examples. Yes,  texting  is  by far the worst, but  dialing  and even  just the holding  and chatting  distracts. Our  laws  here  do  make exception  for the  use of microphones.  The  catch is   the microphone  has to  be  just  that ..  The radio  must  be  attached to the vehicle either  permanently  or  in a  holder, and the microphone  must  not  be  used to  change frequencies  or  other functions  other  than  push to  talk.   By the way , I  don't  know   in your  jurisdiction , but here  you  can  be fined for  distracted driving if you are seen to  be eating , drinking  coffee  or in the  case of the  ladies  doing  some  makeup  maintenance ( maybe  just  not the  ladies  in today's world) and you weave  or  otherwise indicate  your attention is not on the road. 

Do  yourself a favor ( favour  in our spelling) and read   some   from the  mainstream studies  presenting the evidence for  the  effects  of the increased  CO2  in the  atmosphere that  has been  going on since the beginning of the  industrial  age and the  other  factors  leading to  the  increase in global warming.  I  certainly  can't begin to  explain  it  properly .  Stay  away  from  the  extremists  and nut cases on  both the   right  and the  left.

Universities  trying  to  present  logical  arguments  for  social  reforms  such  as  universal  health care  and other  "Socialist" ideas will  always be branded  as pumping out   "Socialist"  ideas by the  Extreme Right Wing  who  have  vested interests in keeping the  US  the  only  western  industrialized nation  not  having universal  health care.   Ant time  anyone  presents arguments  that could affect  the profits  of the  1% are  going to  be attacked by them , and what  better  way  than  to   scream they're  socialist or communist ideas   and interfering  with  your  "freedoms" .  It  has worked  for the  last  century,although  maybe  not  quite as well  as  it  did  during the  Cold  War .

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Great read and great points of view. The reality is that Trump tapped into what the majority was thinking. Had he been a little less “off the cuff” and had a little less of the women and name calling issues, he would have received even more votes because the working class was getting tired of:

paying for government services for those who don’t work

rising healthcare costs, lower coverages to subsidize uninsured 

Jobs disappearing from the US and economy not improving fast enough

Open borders and immigration policies

Less money in their pocket from rising costs and lower wages

Working class people vote with their wallets and if they think they will be financially better with one party or the other, they’ll vote to better themselves. Most working people won’t vote for free money or “insurance for everyone” policies because they don’t feel people who don’t work should get anything free. That’s just not what this country was founded on and it’ll take years for people to ditch the belief that you have to work to achieve the American dream, you don’t get it for free.

Views are going to be different everywhere and I for one think the tax reform is good and it’s about time these blue states start to look at their over taxation and entitlement programs.  Internet tax should have happened a long time ago to even the playing field. It’s sunk enough retail businesses already. Just look at all the dying malls and retail stores that have closed. It’s the internet and not just tax but at least it’ll be fair play with tax.

Unless the dems have a message that will appeal to the working class, there’s just not enough unemployed anymore to win them a seat. Criticizing Trumps behavior will do nothing, dems need to appeal to the working class. If you are a business owner, in most cases you love trump. If you are a lower earning individual, your taxes are a lot less giving you more under trump and companies are raising their wages. Plus, you now have more jobs than those unemployed, isn’t that something. 

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Yes .  tRump  is the consummate  circus  barker. Tell the people what they want to  hear   and ignore the facts.  I won't  begin to try to  argue universal  health care with you except to  say  it  is not free, nor does it  cater to the "freeloaders" .  We pay  for our healthcare through our taxes and it covers everyone with no  co-pays, exclusions ( for necessary   healthcare,   vanity surgeries  are not covered)and no caps. Everyone is covered. Yes .  "freeloaders" too, but nobody  goes bankrupt  because they had the misfortune to  get  sick. The  ERW  has done a fine job of poisoning peoples  minds as far  as universal  health care goes . .You'd think  good caring  Christians and working Americans would want universal  health care  that covers  everyone and at less cost  than  health  care in the  US  costs  now.  Health  care  should  not be  something anyone  should  have to  worry about; whether the  have a  "Cadillac  " plan through their   union  or company  plan or  a  minimum  plan because that's all  they  can afford working  for the  less than  best  company, or the  bum  on the street  that   "good Christians" tend to  ignore  Christs teachings on the subject  and  look down  on them.  Not all of those  bums  are freeloaders by  choice . Some  are  there because the US  system  of health care failed them , and others  because  they were  unable to  keep up  with  changing technology, the realities  of today's workforce  and the  profit  decisions of the  1%, and yes , the"War  on drugs that has done more harm than  good to the vulnerable while enriching  those that  profit  by  jailing them.

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10 hours ago, davefrombc said:

I won't begin to try  to explain  how CO2  and methane released

If you don't know, then how can you have an opinion?

10 hours ago, davefrombc said:

as well  as  deforestation

No one loves trees more than me.  People think I talk to trees LOL!  But I cut tons of vegetation every year only to watch it grow right back so that I have to cut it again next year.  It can't be killed... like mowing the lawn.

You should check out the lodgepole pine and its relationship with the beetles up in your neck of the woods.   Interesting video about the BC forest if you have the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24zxOYwhAys

The beetles kill most of the trees and then lightning burns the whole forest and the cycle of growth begins again with fertile soil.  It's a symbiotic relationship that Canada has spent a lot of time and money trying to fight.

10 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Especially  when  you  ignore the overwhelming evidence

I'm not ignoring anything, but "evidence" is often wrong.  Excellent presentation about that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q

And check out Ignaz Semmelweis.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. Semmelweis could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings, and some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands.  In 1865, Semmelweis was committed to an asylum, where he died at age 47 of pyaemia, after being beaten by the guards, only 14 days after he was committed.

It was once so ludicrous to believe that washing hands provided any benefit that it drove a man into an asylum where he was beaten to death and you tell me I should blindly believe what I am told?

Or check out Boltzman who hung himself.

Or George Washington.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington#Final_days

By the time the three physicians finished their treatments and bloodletting, half or more of his blood content was removed over the course of a few hours.[339][t] 

Science is filled with hare-brained ideas.

Why are you married to this climate change stuff anyway?  Don't you want to know the truth?  Or do you want to blindly follow without understanding?  I signed up on a physics board and made those guys teach me how IR light interacts with co2 because I couldn't get my head around how something in nature could be a high-pass filter.   99% of people have no justification for having an opinion about climate change.  Trump doesn't know either, but like a stopped clock he was accidentally right.

There are benefits of fighting this nonexistence monster of co2, which are solar investment, which is free energy.  But solar is not competitive without gov support.  That's most likely the real reason this lie is perpetrated so vociferously.

11 hours ago, davefrombc said:

When  you look  into the  background  of some  of  the deniers  in the scientific community  , you too  often  find they  are closely associated  with Big  oil and  other  industries that  are  heavy  producers of pollutants.

I have nothing to do with oil.  And even if I did, so what?  Judge an argument on its merits, not the background of the guy arguing; that's an ad hominem.

Dr. Peter Langdon Ward, a geophysicist, who retired from the United States Geological Survey in 1998 after 27 years studying volcanoes, earthquakes, plate tectonics, and regional geology and as a leader in developing the U.S. National Earthquake Hazards Reduction Program.  https://ozonedepletiontheory.info/about-this-website.html

He's not in oil.

11 hours ago, davefrombc said:

accident statistics involving  hand held electronic device

I'm not denying the stats, but saying I'm willing to take the risks in exchange for freedom.  I do not want to be THAT safe.  Plus it's hypocritical that republicans chant "free-markets" and "smaller gov" and then do crap like that.

People like to take risks... it's why they climb mountains and jump from planes.  No one wants to be in a rubber room for his own protection.

11 hours ago, davefrombc said:

CO2  in the  atmosphere that  has been  going on since the beginning of the  industrial  age

As I said, co2 is an effect of animal activity.  Humans are animals.  CO2 rises whenever temps rise because animals thrive in the heat.  Not overbearing heat, but warm.  Ice ages cause the opposite.  Anyway, the concentration is still only 0.04%.  Even if it doubled to 0.08%, it would still be insignificant.

11 hours ago, davefrombc said:

anyone  presents arguments  that could affect  the profits  of the  1% are  going to  be attacked by them

Yup, you nailed it!  Just today the GDP was revised $1 trillion higher in order to fit the narrative that "taxcuts work".  https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-27/us-economy-was-just-revised-1-trillion-higher

The truth is in the 1950 and 60s (when america was "great") taxes were double and GDP was marginally higher (a lot higher if you use GDP number before revisions http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/gross-domestic-product-charts ) and unemployment was just as low as today (much lower if you use the real employment numbers http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts )

There is no evidence that taxcuts provide any benefit to the economy other than pumping up the stock market, increasing private and public debt, and increasing the wealth divide.

The truth is that progressive income taxes (not flat taxes) are the only means available of redistributing wealth to the working class in order for it to flow back up again in the form of profits.  Without that redistribution, new money must be created in the form of debt, which can be illustrated perfectly by a cursory inspection of the debt since Reagan.

The whole purpose of the income tax is to redistribute wealth, as stated by the author of the book The Creature From Jekyll Island, G. Edward Griffin.  Video should be cued to 19:00:


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I'm not denying the stats, but saying I'm willing to take the risks in exchange for freedom.  I do not want to be THAT safe.  Plus it's hypocritical that republicans chant "free-markets" and "smaller gov" and then do crap like that.

People like to take risks... it's why they climb mountains and jump from planes.  No one wants to be in a rubber room for his own protection.

You  have the freedom to take  risks with your own  life  and limbs  but you should not  have the freedom to  risk  other's. When  you knowingly  risk  the safety of  others, that  is not freedom.  That  is stupidity  and selfishness .  No phone call is worth  risking anyone's  lives , no  matter  how  safe you think you  are  using a  handheld  cell  phone while driving or  how  much you want to  risk  your  own  life in the  name  of  "Freedom"


Edited by davefrombc
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11 hours ago, quadmaniac said:

paying for government services for those who don’t work

A lot of the work that is done is just unnecessary suffering to justify a paycheck because of the pervasive belief that "people must work for money" and that idea won't go away until an entire generation of people pass.  Now hear me out:

We have so many machines in our lives: dishwashers, clothes washers, microwaves, cars, trucks, tractors, robots that someone living in the early 1800s might imagine that folks in 2018 would be sitting around doing nothing all day, but we're busier than ever!  We have such a nagging compulsion to get ahead that we haven't the time to raise our own children in spite of all the machinery doing everything for us!

Let's suppose that you and I agree that I can come live at your house and eat your food if I attend to a list of chores.  Ok deal!  Now I make a machine that completes the chores then I sit around eating your food and doing nothing all day.  You'd be pissed!  Wouldn't you?  The thought of my freeloading would be intolerable, yet I've kept my end of the bargain: the chores are done.  You're pissed because you have the philosophy that people must suffer for money.

Alright, so we give people handouts and then you'll say that there will be no incentive to work, as if anyone needed to in light of the machines, but let's run with it anyway.  When you were a child when everything was handed to you, did you turn into a vegetable or did you strive to improve your life?  If the theory is true that adversity builds prosperity, then we would expect to see the most prosperity from the poorest neighborhoods and schools, but do we?  Trump had everything handed to him on a silver platter and look where he is.  He's not smart enough to get into Wharton, but his daddy pulled some strings.  

Former Wharton Professor: 'Trump Was the Dumbest G*ddamn Student I Ever Had'  https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/former-wharton-professor-trump-was-dumbest-gddam-student-i-ever-had

The richest schools have the best students and best athletes and it's directly caused by the handouts that rich kids get.  Almost no one from the bottom 5th makes it to the top 5th and when it does finally happen, they write books and make movies about it called "rags to riches".

If you study the states you'll find that the states with the highest minimum wage have the most educated, highest median incomes, lowest crime, lowest poverty.

There is no evidence whatsoever that adversity builds prosperity.  It's quite the opposite that the more handouts, the more greed takes over and causes people to seek even more prosperity in addition to the handouts.

The opioid epidemic is a result of the wealth inequality because it's a way out of a hopeless situation.  People aren't knuckling-down in adversity to strive for prosperity, but recognizing that it's futile and the best way out is suicide.  The trickle-down isn't trickling enough and the idea that bigger scraps will fall off the table if the rich have bigger meals isn't working.

It would be interesting to conduct a poll:  If the gov sent you $10k every year regardless if you work or not, would you quit your job?  I asked a few people I know and only one said she would quit, but she doesn't work much anyway and would rather stay at home with her kids.  The vast majority would not quit.  Even people who say they would quit, I doubt they would when it came right down to it because: greed.  If you make $18k, which is about $9/hr, why quit for $10k when you could have $28k?  Think of the prosperity that would generate if most people had enough money to thrive.

But it's not about prosperity, but in keeping others down as a way to preserve differential advantage because what fun is it being rich if there is no one to be richer than?


Video should be cued at 10:20


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52 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

but you should not  have the freedom to  risk  other's.

I don't talk on the phone, but they do.  I still drive and subject myself to the risks of idiots and I do not want a law restricting them from challenging me with that risk.

The point mainly was the hypocrisy of the republicans.  It should be the dems issuing this type of law, not republicans.

Anyway, now you're on a slippery slope because we should ban males under the age of 25 from driving because they present a demonstrated risk to public safety (hence higher insurance premiums for them).

We should also ban seniors from driving.

We should ban any car that is not a volvo (or whatever the safest car is).

All motorcycles should be banned in the interest of safety.

Where do you want to draw the line?  Perhaps IQ tests in order to obtain drivers license?

Traffic signs are green because that is the easiest color to see, so all cars should be green.  Anyone with a red car is a public hazard endangering the lives of others.

Cars that do not look like fish bowls should be banned due to visibility restrictions.

Tinted windows - banned.

I could go on and on and on.  It's a slippery slope with no end.

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The generation that fought in WWII loved the government.  It was FDR who started the min wage, raised taxes on the rich, started SSI, and the FDIC which guaranteed bank deposits and he was elected to 4 terms!  He may have been a king if he hadn't died in office.  FDR conquered the evils of unrestrained capitalism that had been the source of oppression for generations prior and he singlehandedly created the middle class with his social programs.  Grandpa was born in 1924 and you'll never convince him any president was better than FDR (Kennedy a close 2nd) because he lived it.  Hoover (the businessman) was the worst, followed by Tricky Dick (Nixon).

The generation that followed hated the government and became the Reaganites and Dittoheads.

The gov had grown bloated, inefficient, and went to extremes in the hands of the Greatest Generation that adored the government programs that saved their asses. 

But now, all that can be accomplished by conservatives is to undo everything FDR did and go right back to the other extreme, which puts us right back in the environment that led to the impoverishment of the dual-class society that was void of a middle class.  Before FDR, you were either filthy rich or dirt poor.  I know a 94 yr old man that will tell you that you don't want that.  But we're heading back there as fast as we can go as people ignore history.




Make America Great Again = putting taxes back how they were when America was great.  Do what FDR did; don't undo it.


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