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2016 Presidential Election Discussion Thread


Next President?  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Vote for your choice for the next President of the United States

    • Hillary Clinton
      10
    • Donald Trump
      37
    • Gary Johnson
      1
    • Jill Stein
      0

This poll is closed to new votes


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Trump, or as I  normally  spell  it  tRump to refrain from  being accused of  profanity, is the perfect example of a cult leader.  His  followers  blindly follow  him  and ignore every negative fact  of his suitability  for the position. Clinton  was the  target  of  character assassination  for  years  before she   ran  for the presidency.  The  lies  and  half truths against her were repeated  often  enough over a  long enough period  even  skeptics  developed  a dislike for  her.  It's unfortunate because she  would  have been  hands down  a far superior  President  than  the  present  disaster to the US.  The  only thing  I had  against Hillary  is that  she  was  more hawkish than   I  like to  see, but whether you agree or  not , I saw her administration skills and intelligence first rate . Rump  has a  BS degree in economics..  The  BS  is very  fitting  and doesn't  mean   Bachelor of Science.  I wonder  how  much Daddy  paid for   little  Donald's degree.

The  GOP  can  be  very  glad the rest of the world  can't vote in American  elections ..  They  would be totally wiped  out  for their  support of tRump.  Only  in  America  could he stay in power without  a shooting  uprising ..  In the Parliamentary democratic  countries  he would  have been  removed from  power long ago  by  his own  party  members  simply  by  voting in  a new  leader ..  You in the  US  have far  less ability  to  easily remove him..  There is  no  "redo" provisions  for  your  vote  for  President when corruption and interference  swaying the election has been  so  strongly shown, even  if technically  not  proven  in  court yet . Getting rid of the anachronistic  Electoral  college  would  go  a  long way   to  bringing the  US voting  system  of  of the  1700s  into  modern reality  of communications ..  It  served its  purpose  back then  when It  sometimes took  months to tabulate votes and relay results to  decide the Presidency  and  members of Congress,  but now  it  is  really  useless and can  result in the wrong person  being elected simply  because he ( or she) took the  majority  in key states.

The  US  surviving  tRump so  long without  violence  and  collapse  is a tribute to the innate  strength  of the  American  economy and the  majority  of her people.  I wouldn't  test  it  for another 4  years though..  You've been  lucky so far .

 

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57 minutes ago, GrizzlyRider said:

@JustRandy  and  @davefrombc , you both have some good points and I respect your opinions. I am of a different mindset completely, but its been interesting to read what you guys are sharing and your points of view, so thank you. 👍

As  long  as  our discussions  bring others to thinking and  searching for  facts , real  facts,  and forming their own  opinions  we have accomplished something.  We  may not agree on everything.  What a boring world that  would  make ,  but  we can civilly  disagree and reach  a consensus that  benefits us all. If only we were all as smart  as  the   Great Orange one  claims to be   :D

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2 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

As  long  as  our discussions  bring others to thinking and  searching for  facts , real  facts,  and forming their own  opinions  we have accomplished something.  We  may not agree on everything.  What a boring world that  would  make ,  but  we can civilly  disagree and reach  a consensus that  benefits us all. If only we were all as smart  as  the   Great Orange one  claims to be   :D

Well said. If he loses he's going for Canadian citizenship!  He's gonna make Canada Great Again...the hats are already made!

image.thumb.png.c3ad9930dae98ee18a04cd9940d62feb.png

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I  hope not ..  It would cost a fortune for the wall  we  would make you erect and pay for to  keep  him  in,  and to support the armed guards we  would  need to  make sure  he  didn't climb over or tunnel  under. We  have our  own  much milder  version  of  tRump  here  seeking  election.  We don't  need the full  blown   one  here .  Maybe  Boris would welcome   in the  UK.

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6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Trump, or as I  normally  spell  it  tRump to refrain from  being accused of  profanity, is the perfect example of a cult leader.  His  followers  blindly follow  him  and ignore every negative fact  of his suitability  for the position.

Yeah that's what I'm complaining about: blind loyalty and inability to admit error.  I admitted I was wrong, you were right, so why can't others?  No biggie... I learn and move on.  I win some and lose some.

After watching enough historical documentaries I've come to the conclusion that humans have a predisposition for blind loyalty because if the serf wasn't loyal to the lord, he was killed, and probably if he had a family, they starved or worse, so therefore any genes that got passed down were those who just obeyed orders without question.

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Clinton  was the  target  of  character assassination  for  years  before she   ran  for the presidency.  The  lies  and  half truths against her were repeated  often  enough over a  long enough period  even  skeptics  developed  a dislike for  her.  It's unfortunate because she  would  have been  hands down  a far superior  President  than  the  present  disaster to the US.  The  only thing  I had  against Hillary  is that  she  was  more hawkish than   I  like to  see, but whether you agree or  not , I saw her administration skills and intelligence first rate .

The Clintons threatened us with mediocrity.  Biden's job will be to protect the opulent minority from the majority by giving the people the bare minimum to shut them up.  That's why he said "nothing will fundamentally change" to his rich donors.  So instead of socialized healthcare like you have, we'll have the cluster-fluck obamacare that safeguards the big profits for insurance companies and increases inefficiency overall.  Costs will go up, taxes will go up on the middle class, quality of care will go down, but the important thing is that the profits for big corporations are secured.

Sure, Hillary would have been a better president, but then the people wouldn't be fighting for a canada-style healthcare because they would have been pacified already with obamacare.  We have to keep the people riled up with Trump to keep them fighting for a real solution.  If the people are pacified with a half-assed solution, then they won't fight.  That is the primary job of establishment dems, who aren't at all democratic (Biden is a republican who believes in states' rights).  Hillary has "a heart of a liberal and the mind of a conservative" in her own words.  In other words, tampons in the mensroom with tax breaks for the rich and nothing for the poor.

That's why I say I can see voting for Trump as a protest vote being noble, but that doesn't mean one has to actually support Trump.

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Rump  has a  BS degree in economics..  The  BS  is very  fitting  and doesn't  mean   Bachelor of Science.  I wonder  how  much Daddy  paid for   little  Donald's degree.

I read somewhere that he didn't have to pay anything because Donnie was passed simply as a favor to Fred.

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

The  GOP  can  be  very  glad the rest of the world  can't vote in American  elections ..  They  would be totally wiped  out  for their  support of tRump.  Only  in  America  could he stay in power without  a shooting  uprising ..  In the Parliamentary democratic  countries  he would  have been  removed from  power long ago  by  his own  party  members  simply  by  voting in  a new  leader ..  You in the  US  have far  less ability  to  easily remove him..  There is  no  "redo" provisions  for  your  vote  for  President when corruption and interference  swaying the election has been  so  strongly shown, even  if technically  not  proven  in  court yet .

What about Boris in the UK?  How are they going to get rid of him?

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Getting rid of the anachronistic  Electoral  college  would  go  a  long way   to  bringing the  US voting  system  of  of the  1700s  into  modern reality  of communications ..  It  served its  purpose  back then  when It  sometimes took  months to tabulate votes and relay results to  decide the Presidency  and  members of Congress,  but now  it  is  really  useless and can  result in the wrong person  being elected simply  because he ( or she) took the  majority  in key states.

The electoral college wasn't what the founders wanted, but giving the states rights was the only way to get the states to ratify the constitution.  The territories already existed and they couldn't threaten to abolish the territories and expect the territories to agree to it, so they had to reluctantly include provisions to protect the territories from the federation.  The electoral college wasn't the best way, but the only way; a necessary evil.

Madison acknowledged that while a popular vote would be ideal, it would be difficult to get consensus on the proposal given the prevalence of slavery in the South:

There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College#Background

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

The  US  surviving  tRump so  long without  violence  and  collapse  is a tribute to the innate  strength  of the  American  economy and the  majority  of her people.  I wouldn't  test  it  for another 4  years though..  You've been  lucky so far .

There isn't much I can do.  I'm just a spectator.  We have to wait for the kids to outnumber the seniors.

As the great Max Planck, himself the originator of the quantum theory in physics, has said, science makes progress funeral by funeral: the old are never converted by the new doctrines, they simply are replaced by a new generation.  https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/09/25/progress/

I think you'd be surprised at just how much neoliberalism has infested the entire world since Reagan.  Tax rates around the world started to fall after 1980.  

Click "max" and see:

https://tradingeconomics.com/denmark/corporate-tax-rate

https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/corporate-tax-rate

https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/corporate-tax-rate

I could fill a whole post describing just how conservative Denmark is.  Denmark has a 55.8% income tax and 22% corporate tax.  Does that look like socialism to you?  It looks like neoliberalism to me.  They value corps over individuals.  On top of that they have a 25% sales tax, 8% social security tax and the employer pays 0.  All the taxes are on the backs of the workers while the corps pay hardly anything.  But Denmark doesn't have a military to speak of, so the tax revenue goes back to the people in social services which pacifies the people while protecting profits for corps.  Canada has a much fairer system with a 33% income tax and 26.5% corporate tax, 5% sales tax, and the employer and employee pay the same amount to social security.   (correct me if my stats are wrong).  At least the corps are bearing more of the burden in Canada.  The US is almost identical to Canada, except much of our revenue goes to the military and then to the corps instead of healthcare and education.

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for one I should not even be over in this sh** hole...cause it might get me banned form here....but on the other had...

Over Here...I'm making FAT Stacks of CASH!!!

my work hours increased,my pay went up...!!

THIS IS AMERICA!!!

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Rich1028 said:

What the flip...and I Mean What the flip do you from B.C. have a saying what goes down in the USA!!

You don't support freedom of speech?

11 minutes ago, Rich1028 said:

my work hours increased,my pay went up...way better than when that dip sh** N.I.C. was in there for 8 miserable YEARS!

What does Trump or Obama have to do with your pay?

11 minutes ago, Rich1028 said:

LIBERAL'S ARE A DISEASE...AND NEED TO BE REMOVED!!

Except that people found to have higher IQs as a child grow up to be liberals.  http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/SPQ2010.pdf

Liberals are also more educated  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282421724_The_Association_of_Cognitive_Ability_with_Right-wing_Ideological_Attitudes_and_Prejudice_A_Meta-analytic_Review

While conservatism is associated with failed states  http://davesource.com/Fringe/Fringe/Politics/Conservatism-and-cognitive-ability.pdf

The evidence is based on 1254 community college students and 1600 foreign students seeking entry to United States' universities. At the individual level of analysis, conservatism scores correlate negatively with SAT, Vocabulary, and Analogy test scores. At the national level of analysis, conservatism scores correlate negatively with measures of education (e.g., gross enrollment at primary, secondary, and tertiary levels) and performance on mathematics and reading assessments from the PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) project. They also correlate with components of the Failed States Index and several other measures of economic and political development of nations.

Essentially, conservatism arises from calamity.  Conservatism isn't necessarily a disease, but it comes from a diseased society.  It's a consequence of poverty.

The neurological differences are so pronounced that they can determine who is republican or democrat with a brain scan and be correct 82.9% of the time, which is the best prediction model available to science  https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0052970

journal_pone.0052970_g001.jpg.dba0e707d2552b7a07a91916b0ad5b2b.jpg

 

The amygdala is the part of the brain associated with fear which explains why conservatives need guns, military, strong borders, etc because they're terrified.

The TPJ region of the brain is associated with empathy.

11 minutes ago, Rich1028 said:

THIS IS AMERICA!!!

And the liberals are taking over.  Love it or leave it lol

2_8.png.8152f154a36331d2622a6ea072aa1624.png

 

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Justrandy ,  the  UK  can easily replace  Boris if  he  riles  the masses enough. They don't even  need to go to the polls to do it. I  believe  there are some differences  in their Parliament so  I  can't comment on exactly  how they can  do  it ,  whether it  is  like ours where   his party  merely  has to  hold a convention  and choose a new  leader or if it  has to  be  a choice  by all  members of Parliament.  Our income tax rates  are on  a sliding scale. Copied this direct from  the  government   site :

These taxes are after all  our  personal  deductions have come off our  gross income ,  rate is on  net.

 

 Federal tax rates for 2019

  • 15% on the first $47,630 of taxable income, plus
  • 20.5% on the next $47,629 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over 47,630 up to $95,259), plus
  • 26% on the next $52,408 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $95,259 up to $147,667), plus
  • 29% on the next $62,704 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over 147,667 up to $210,371), plus
  • 33% of taxable income over $210,371

Unfortunately  I  don't  qualify  for getting hit  with any of the four top tax rates. :D

Federal  business taxes  are nowhere near  the rates you  quote either .  If  you want to  make your head spin here is the  government noise on  corporate tax rates: https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/corporatetax/corporate-tax-rates-2019.htm

I  suggest a good stiff beverage of your  choice as you try to  make sense of it.

Federal sales tax is 5% on nearly all  goods and services. Provincial sales taxes   vary  by province . Here in BC  it is 7 %.

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38 minutes ago, Admin said:

@Rich1028 Not gonna ban you, but have to make a remark here...wrong site to post like that. I've edited your post and almost every sentence that contained a profanity has been removed. Consider this site "family friendly". Please keep it clean and no bashing other members. 

I got to it before you edited it.  Hopefully my changes to his post are acceptable.

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2 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Justrandy ,  the  UK  can easily replace  Boris if  he  riles  the masses enough. They don't even  need to go to the polls to do it. I  believe  there are some differences  in their Parliament so  I  can't comment on exactly  how they can  do  it ,  whether it  is  like ours where   his party  merely  has to  hold a convention  and choose a new  leader or if it  has to  be  a choice  by all  members of Parliament.  Our income tax rates  are on  a sliding scale. Copied this direct from  the  government   site :

These taxes are after all  our  personal  deductions have come off our  gross income ,  rate is on  net.

 Federal tax rates for 2019

  • 15% on the first $47,630 of taxable income, plus
  • 20.5% on the next $47,629 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over 47,630 up to $95,259), plus
  • 26% on the next $52,408 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $95,259 up to $147,667), plus
  • 29% on the next $62,704 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over 147,667 up to $210,371), plus
  • 33% of taxable income over $210,371

Unfortunately  I  don't  qualify  for getting hit  with any of the four top tax rates. :D

Federal  business taxes  are nowhere near  the rates you  quote either .  If  you want to  make your head spin here is the  government noise on  corporate tax rates: https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/corporatetax/corporate-tax-rates-2019.htm

I  suggest a good still beverage of your  choice as you try to  make sense of it.

Federal sales tax is 5% on nearly all  goods and services. Provincial sales taxes   vary  by province . Here in BC  is is 7 %.

I was comparing the top rates of taxation, so 33% was correct.  I got the corp tax rate from here https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/corporate-tax-rate

Basically, they're taxing individuals more than corporations.  Not all individuals, but the richer ones.  And by the time you consider paying the 12% sales tax and whatever other taxes Canadians pay, I'm sure the corporations have it relatively easy.

The US doesn't have a national sales tax, but the states are pretty close to your provincial rates, though some states have no sales tax.

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Members like  @Rich  don't realize  how close Canada and the US  are tied  with citizens of both countries  having relatives on both sides of the border  and the  integration of  many  of our  businesses.  I  have no  vote in your elections ,  but I  do  have my opinions which are  just  as  relevant  as yours. If the US   only dealt with  her own  with no trade with the rest of the world   maybe world opinion  of what goes  on there  would not  matter ,  but with the US  being a major trading partner  with  so  many,  their opinions  matter and directly  affect  your trade with them. Ask  your farmers and others  hurting because of tRumps asinine tariff war  if  other  countries and peoples opinions  matter in  American  affairs.

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1 minute ago, davefrombc said:

Members like  @Rich  don't realize  how close Canada and the US  are tied  with citizens of both countries  having relatives on both sides of the border  and the  integration of  many  of our  businesses.  I  have no  vote in your elections ,  but I  do  have my opinions which are  just  as  relevant  as yours. If the US   only dealt with  her own  with no trade with the rest of the world   maybe world opinion  of what goes  on there  would not  matter ,  but with the US  being a major trading partner  with  so  many,  their opinions  matter and directly  affect  your trade with them. Ask  your farmers and others  hurting because of tRumps asinine tariff war  if  other  countries and peoples opinions  matter in  American  affairs.

If I were foreign to the US, I'd feel US affairs were of my concern simply because the US is the terrorist of the world butting into everyone else's business.

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  • 3 months later...

This economy is going to win the president another term. Housing prices are up, wages are up, and I just looked at my 401k for the year end return rate and it finished at just under 25%. I’ve never had that, usually 4-7%. Add to the fact that there are no good democratic candidates to bring anything better to the table, he has a clear path. The impeachment lack of severity has helped him as well. Republicans may win the house as well.

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9 hours ago, quadmaniac said:

This economy is going to win the president another term. Housing prices are up, wages are up, and I just looked at my 401k for the year end return rate and it finished at just under 25%. I’ve never had that, usually 4-7%.

Prices being up just means the dollar is going down.  Venezuelan stock market is up 3000% this year.  Your returns will be a function of how well Trump can compel the fed to trash the dollar with QE to support his fake economy.

Homelessness is exploding, opioid epidemic is still raging, suicides are up, farmer suicides are 50% higher than in the farm crisis of the 80s.  That's not indicative of a good economy.

Unemployment is still the same 20% it's been all decade http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

One of the things I originally liked about Trump is that he pointed out that the unemployment numbers were a lie and really 20, 30, 40%.  Now he's taking credit for what he previously called a lie.

He also said the stock market was a "Big Fat Ugly Bubble" in the second debate with Hillary.  Now it's the greatest ever.  Just another lie to add to the list of 15,000.

9 hours ago, quadmaniac said:

Add to the fact that there are no good democratic candidates to bring anything better to the table, he has a clear path. The impeachment lack of severity has helped him as well. Republicans may win the house as well.

Boomers don't have the numbers to win it for Trump.  It would seem even a potato could beat Trump.

GA will probably flip blue since Stacey Abrams only lost by a mere 50,000 votes out of 4 million in a state with 10 million people.  If Trump can't hold GA, he can't hold the swing states (PA, WI, MI) that he barely won by a collective 77k votes.

I think it's less of a question of whether he will win and more of a question of how badly he will lose.  And that is a function of who is running against him.  Bernie would clobber him, but Biden won't fare as well.

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Trump  claimed   several times  Obama  would go to  war  with  Iran  to  bolster his support  for re-election in  2011-2012 .. It  never happened as we all  know ,  but now  guess what  Trump  has done in an  idiotic attempt to  gain  popularity   for taking Suleimani out.  I  agree the general  richly  deserved what he got ;  but it was at the wrong time in the wrong  place  and  for  the wrong reasons despite  what  his "intelligence  services"  claimed about  "planned attacks".. I  can recall very vividly  a  war  fought under false pretenses that  directly  led up to this mess. I wonder  how  long it wil l take  and how many  are going to  have to  die before  some of the  Trump  cultists wake up to  how badly they've been  misled. The last  3 years  have seen the one percent  and the  better  off members of the middle  have had  great gains  on their stocks  and  401ks.  Everyone else has seen their situation  worsen.  Wake  up  GOP supporters.  Trump  has  ballooned the deficit  with  his tariffs and then  attempts  to  subsidize  the farmers.  His  trade wars  have only  cost  American consumers dearly while they have done  nothing to  boost  jobs and well  being  in America.

My  condolences in advance for all those Americans and Middle easterners who  are going to  lose  family  members  in the conflict  sure to  come ;  either through terrorist attacks and  useless  blanket retaliation against Iran , or outright  war in the middle east  which will  only that only result in  more hatred towards the  US and  more terrorism.

 

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3 hours ago, JustRandy said:

Unemployment is still the same 20% it's been all decade http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

That number on ShadowStats measures people who are not working as much as they would “like to” or “could”. You can bring a lot of “noise” into the data if you look for “alternative” data. The actual unemployment rate is those that a working vs non working as a %, not those that are working but not in their ideal job...

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

Trump  claimed   several times  Obama  would go to  war  with  Iran  to  bolster his support  for re-election in  2011-2012 .. It  never happened as we all  know ,  but now  guess what  Trump  has done in an  idiotic attempt to  gain  popularity   for taking Suleimani out. 

Could be, polls will show. I’d rather actions like this to deter bad behavior than waiting to see how far a rogue regime will go. Sanctions aren’t always enough. 

I’m going to enjoy my company sponsored 401k under Trump for now..it’s never been better.

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  • 7 months later...

@quadmaniac I'm no longer confident in my prediction that Trump will lose because I didn't anticipate Biden could be this bad.  Again the DNC appoints the worst candidate they could find.  I predicated my logic mainly on the fact that more democrats exist while republicans are dying, but many are refusing to vote for either of the two evils, progressives are wise to the democratic party corruption, and some blacks and minorities are abandoning the democratic party.  I'm pretty sure Biden will win the popular vote, but I can't say which way the swing states will swing.  I think independents might replace those who are fleeing the republican party.  Anyway, it's no longer so obvious because it really has nothing to do with the economy or any metric we could observe, but more to do with emotion which is anyone's guess.

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As an  observer from  north of your border, I sincerely hope  tRump gets beaten  badly  in both the popular vote  and in the  states won. Biden  is far more capable than  far too many realize.  Harris   is also.  tRump  and Pence are bad jokes.  The orange wonder  has taken the US  lower in international  opinion  than  it has ever been. His incompetence  and self serving is beyond anything I've ever seen  in  any western country. Obama and Biden  had an administration that was free of scandal. They took  a  country on the ropes and  started it back to  prosperity.  tRump has undone that . His  denial  and mishandling of the COVID-19  pandemic  has costs 10s of thousands more lives to  be lost to it than would have been  lost if he had taken the warnings in the beginning. His administration and election team  has been  one scandal  after another , and it is easier to  count the number of them  that have NOT been  charged criminally for their corruption and illegal  activity over the 2016  election and you can be sure  the Russians  are meddling again. What other President  has replaced so  many of his cabinet over the first 4  years of his administration?. . How  many have had as many of their associates  charged criminally for illegal  dealings with the government,For sexual  misconduct (  That's putting it  mildly)  and how many  have  had a parade of women  accuse him  of  sexual  misconduct themself. Playing off the prostitute and Playboy  bunny alone should  show the  truth in their accusations,  let alone his taped admissions of his tendency  to  "grab them  by the  pu***".  I  find it extremely  difficult to get my mind around the support that incompetent  narcissist  has.  It does tell the world not so  nice things about  America. I purposely switch the capitalization of tRump's name. I'm pretty sure  people  know  my opinion of that  north end of a south bound "Stable  Genius". He  may  hold the office ,  but you have not had a  President  for  4 years. Please,  tRump supporters , take off your blinders, look around  you,  hold your  nose if you  don't  like Biden  and vote that stain on America  out. Everyone  who  either voted for him because the  GOP's constant  barrage of unfounded character attacks on Clinton over the years or failed to  vote in 2016  because they didn't like either candidate put him in there.  Don't  do  it  again, please.  Look at the real issues and failings of his  administration. Put aside  your  attitudes of  "American freedoms" and whether social services and  Universal  Healthcare  are dreaded  Socialist controls over your lives. Do  you really want to end all government  services?  Think about it.  Any time people form a society where  they help one another  is a form  of "socialism".  Democracy is  socialism.  Absolute monarchy  and dictatorships the only  forms of government that are not.

Yes,  I have lost confidence in Americans living up to the ideals  they claims to  have. The plaque on the Statue of Liberty is meaningless to tRump and the society he is trying to  build will all bowing to  his "magnificence". 

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54 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

As an  observer from  north of your border, I sincerely hope  tRump gets beaten  badly  in both the popular vote  and in the  states won. Biden  is far more capable than  far too many realize.  Harris   is also.  tRump  and Pence are bad jokes.  The orange wonder  has taken the US  lower in international  opinion  than  it has ever been. His incompetence  and self serving is beyond anything I've ever seen  in  any western country. Obama and Biden  had an administration that was free of scandal. They took  a  country on the ropes and  started it back to  prosperity.  tRump has undone that . His  denial  and mishandling of the COVID-19  pandemic  has costs 10s of thousands more lives to  be lost to it than would have been  lost if he had taken the warnings in the beginning. His administration and election team  has been  one scandal  after another , and it is easier to  count the number of them  that have NOT been  charged criminally for their corruption and illegal  activity over the 2016  election and you can be sure  the Russians  are meddling again. What other President  has replaced so  many of his cabinet over the first 4  years of his administration?. . How  many have had as many of their associates  charged criminally for illegal  dealings with the government,For sexual  misconduct (  That's putting it  mildly)  and how many  have  had a parade of women  accuse him  of  sexual  misconduct themself. Playing off the prostitute and Playboy  bunny alone should  show the  truth in their accusations,  let alone his taped admissions of his tendency  to  "grab them  by the  pu***".  I  find it extremely  difficult to get my mind around the support that incompetent  narcissist  has.  It does tell the world not so  nice things about  America. I purposely switch the capitalization of tRump's name. I'm pretty sure  people  know  my opinion of that  north end of a south bound "Stable  Genius". He  may  hold the office ,  but you have not had a  President  for  4 years. Please,  tRump supporters , take off your blinders, look around  you,  hold your  nose if you  don't  like Biden  and vote that stain on America  out. Everyone  who  either voted for him because the  GOP's constant  barrage of unfounded character attacks on Clinton over the years or failed to  vote in 2016  because they didn't like either candidate put him in there.  Don't  do  it  again, please.  Look at the real issues and failings of his  administration. Put aside  your  attitudes of  "American freedoms" and whether social services and  Universal  Healthcare  are dreaded  Socialist controls over your lives. Do  you really want to end all government  services?  Think about it.  Any time people form a society where  they help one another  is a form  of "socialism".  Democracy is  socialism.  Absolute monarchy  and dictatorships the only  forms of government that are not.

Yes,  I have lost confidence in Americans living up to the ideals  they claims to  have. The plaque on the Statue of Liberty is meaningless to tRump and the society he is trying to  build will all bowing to  his "magnificence". 

Interesting point of view @davefrombc but keep in mind that it was the Obama/Biden years that got Trump elected. If their agenda was so good, Hillary would have won.  I don't want more government programs, I want everyone to work and earn what they get. I'm only for helping sick, elderly, disabled veterans, and single moms (maybe some others I forgot). No drug addicts or lazy asses. Everyone else has to work. I loved my employer sponsored healthcare before the ACA and wish it would come back. I don't like that employer sponsored healthcare changed so much since Obama. I'm for big business, small business, medium business, and everything that helps drive more business growth. Nothing is free, someone will always pay.

16 hours ago, JustRandy said:

@quadmaniac I'm no longer confident in my prediction that Trump will lose because I didn't anticipate Biden could be this bad.  Again the DNC appoints the worst candidate they could find.  

I can't believe they couldn't find anyone better. Harris did not enhance the ticket at all. They had a chance to put up a winning agenda but they got so consumed in trying to highlight what is bad in their point of view. That's a losing strategy, most vote with a WIFM and their wallets. Trump will end up winning.

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@davefrombc None of that matters.  People are going to vote for him anyway regardless what he does or how he acts.  That's why it's so hard to predict because none of it is quantifiable.

And Biden exists to stop medicare for all to protect the rich.  If Biden is in there, then no progressive can possibly come to power.  If Biden wins 2020, then Kamala wins 2024 and maybe 2028.  By 2032 we will flip back republican like always and that republican will likely be worse than Trump because they've been trending that direction since Bush Sr.  But if Trump wins 2020, then progressives have a shot in 2024 and medicare for all is still on the table.  That's why it's so imperative everyone vote Biden to protect the rich and they're leveraging hatred for Trump to effect that.

You might say Trump coddles the rich more, but it's so egregious and blatant that the risk is people revolt and a progressive comes to power who will really put the screws to the rich, so it's better to get Biden installed to prevent that fate and get everyone calmed down and put back to sleep.

And the police violence is actually Biden's fault because he wrote the crime bill.  He said "we do everything but hang people for jaywalking with this bill."  As bad as Trump is, I can't see him saying anything that sinister.

15 minutes ago, quadmaniac said:

keep in mind that it was the Obama/Biden years that got Trump elected.

Precisely!  If anyone thinks this Trump is bad, wait until they see the one coming after a run of Biden.

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I'm sorry but you gentlemen sure don't see i as I  and the majority of the international community do. tRump  got elected, not because of Obama/ Biden, but because of an anachronistic  Electoral College, and years of character assassination of Hillary Clinton that had too many believing the GOP lies and accusations against her;  NONE  of which were ever proven  in court. tRump got elected because of that "college"  and too many who  failed to  vote because they didn't like either candidate.   Medicare, like the rest of America's allies have, by whatever name you want to  call it is going to be  a hard sell no matter which party is in  power.  You have a  much better chance of taking steps to achieve it under  a Biden administration and successive administrations than you have  with Trump  and any  GOP  that might follow him.  Biden is a realist.  He knows all too well he can't bring it in to  stay without a lot of small steps to get around some of the constitutional  and  red state roadblocks that will be set up to try to  kill it .  Look at what happened with "Obama care". . a first step.  Ask people if the were against  Obamacare and get a resounding  yes.  Ask  if they liked the  Affordable Care Act (ACA) and  again  get a resounding yes. Same thing, different names, but the  GOP did a fine job of snowing people.  Yes, admittedly the ACA  had a lot of faults, but it was a first step...  Our  own  universal  care  here was started by one "socialist" party in one province  ( Saskatchewan) in 1947).  It took a long time and battle against major opposition to  reach the point it is at now .. There is still big money trying to  gut the system, and  yes , there are still much room for improvement in it.  If you're interested to see the fight we had , and in some ways , still have check out this site with a history of health care here.

The battle in the US will be much harder because of your political  system grants much more power and responsibilities to individual states,   plus  over a century of the right scaring people over a twisted view  of  socialism as they try to  paint it. .Anything of benefit to the little  guy  is immediately labeled socialism  to  scare people away .. If it benefits the rich it is free enterprise and praised. Socialism can be  used as a term for democracy. Democracy is socialism.. Free enterprise as some  on the extreme right like to  see it amounts to  slavery. Instead of physical slavery, people are slaved to wages,  kept as low as possible to benefit the  rich, and those wanting to get rich at the least possible cost. Instead of  "Massa",minimal  housing and food to  keep the slaves able to  work the fields we now have
 "Bosses"  and wages kept as low as possible so the workers can  get to  work and do the  job without them  doing too well  and leaving.

Free enterprise is good , but so  is social responsibility  and equality.  The two  can exist together. Some at the top get it  and despite being super rich , still find ways to  benefit all .  Too bad they  are so few .

@JustRandy   Just how do you feel   Biden  is so  bad?   Other than having a  battle with a speech impediment that  he still fights,  what has he done that is so bad?

Edited by davefrombc
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I doubt there  will ever be a President worse than tRump.  His administration has been the pinnacle of corruption and incompetence.  I can't see the US surviving as a nation if a worse one ever arises .

Here is the history of  Canadian  healthcare  I forgot to  link  above https://www.healthcoalition.ca/tools-and-resources/history-of-canadas-public-health-care/

Edited by davefrombc
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9 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

tRump  got elected, not because of Obama/ Biden, but because of an anachronistic  Electoral College,

Like Obama said, if Hillary had conducted a decent campaign, the electoral college would not have been an issue.  She couldn't win the swing states.  A good candidate should be able to win those states.

9 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

and years of character assassination of Hillary Clinton that had too many believing the GOP lies and accusations against her; 

Hillary and Trump are the most hated politicians in Gallup history.  That is not based on lies.  Biden is probably 3rd most hated by now.  https://news.gallup.com/poll/197231/trump-clinton-finish-historically-poor-images.aspx

9 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

You have a  much better chance of taking steps to achieve it under  a Biden administration

No way because Biden exists to stop medicare for all.  That's his sole purpose in life at this moment.  Obamacare puts the burden of the poor on the middle class while the rich profit.  Medicare for all puts the burden of the poor on the rich.  Under Biden, the poor will have healthcare, but the middle class will pay for it with high premiums and taxes while the insurance companies make big profits.  Once Obamacare is entrenched, there is no way to push for medicare for all.

9 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Biden is a realist. 

Biden is corrupt and owned by wallstreet.  Biden says we can't afford healthcare but Cananda is doing ok right?  Biden's "realism" says your country can't do what it's doing.

9 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Just how do you feel   Biden  is so  bad?   Other than having a  battle with a speech impediment that  he still fights,  what has he done that is so bad?

I thought I already said why.  He wrote the crime bill that locked up untold multitudes of blacks for drugs.  He wrote the patriot act that sanctioned spying on citizens and detainment without charges.  He is a supporter of private prisons that profit form his crime bill.  He exists to stop progressivism.  Trump is just a bumbling moron out for himself but Biden is truly evil.  Kamala is no better.

1,040,883,133 Reasons Why Bernie’s Supporters Will Never Support Joe Biden  https://ridethefence.com/2020/04/09/1040883133-reasons-why-bernies-supporters-will-never-support-joe-biden-seriously-we-counted/

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@davefrombc I can appreciate your point of view and just wanted to mention that. Although I may disagree on many points I do acknowledge that a one size glove does not fit all. There is a case to be made for both sides of this. Personally, I want better healthcare cheaper (like it used to be) and I want to keep more of my money I earn.  

You make a point that states have a lot of control and one thing that most states have a lot of are entitlement programs, pensions, unions, independent local agencies, etc. I wish they would convert pensions to 401ks,  get rid of unions, and take all those programs and offset the cost of healthcare for those that can't afford it or need help. There are too many government programs already that don't benefit everyone....

The more people depend on government programs, the more freedoms they lose. This country was founded on freedom, I just don't see that going away with history. I predict there will be a lot of closet voters voting for Trump because they want to keep their money and what they have..

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16 minutes ago, JustRandy said:

Obamacare puts the burden of the poor on the middle class while the rich profit.  Medicare for all puts the burden of the poor on the rich.  Under Biden, the poor will have healthcare, but the middle class will pay for it with high premiums and taxes while the insurance companies make big profits.  Once Obamacare is entrenched, there is no way to push for medicare for all.

Middle class is already paying for it with shitty healthcare, high deductibles and couldn't keep our doctors. Its outrageous actually. At least I have a low income family member that can benefit and I can feel a little better about it for them, by my healthcare plan for what I pay was drastically reduced. If I wanted the same coverage, my monthly payment more than doubled under a family plan. This is why I hate ACA/Obamacare. Screwed the middle class worker who relies on an employer sponsored healthcare plan.  I want that thing gone.

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51 minutes ago, quadmaniac said:

Middle class is already paying for it with shitty healthcare, high deductibles and couldn't keep our doctors. Its outrageous actually. At least I have a low income family member that can benefit and I can feel a little better about it for them, by my healthcare plan for what I pay was drastically reduced. If I wanted the same coverage, my monthly payment more than doubled under a family plan. This is why I hate ACA/Obamacare. Screwed the middle class worker who relies on an employer sponsored healthcare plan.  I want that thing gone.

Everybody hates obamacare and that's part of the point.  Either the poor are taken care of while the rich are protected or else the people want to go back to before obamacare which benefits the rich, so they win either way.

On the other hand, medicare for all is nothing out of pocket.  No paperwork, no deductibles, no copays, no nothing.  Just 4% tax on income above $29,000 and you go to any dr in the country.  In comparison, Canada has a 5% sales tax to fund their healthcare and I'm sure Dave will tell how great that is.  US and Canadian taxes are almost identical except for their 5% national sales tax.

Income tax 33% vs 37% (CA vs US)

Corporate tax 26.5% vs 21%

Employer's share of social security 7.37% vs 7.65%

Employee's share of social security 6.72% vs 7.65%

https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/personal-income-tax-rate

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/personal-income-tax-rate

Canada does it, but we can't afford it?  No, the rich don't want to pay.

Yeah it probably would increase wait times because it's so easy to go to the dr, but Bernie also wanted to make it easier to get the education to be a dr so we'd have more of them.  The rich don't want to pay for that either.  It's Biden's job to be sure none of that ever happens.  That's why they rigged the primary to get Biden in there and they're counting on people like Dave hating Trump so much that they have no choice but to vote for Biden.  I don't know if it's going to work.

Michael Moore is sounding the alarm again  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/29/michael-moore-donald-trump-repeat-2016-warning

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Our health care has it' faults and more could be covered.it  is not  just a federal program. The Federal  government gives a per capita grant to the provinces for health care.  Each province decides how the funds will be spent  and how the rest of the  funds for health care in the province will be raised.  Were were paying a monthly fee for our health care here in BC, but  they  changed the system this year , much to the complaint of a  lot of businesses.  The Federal  government does negotiate with the various drug  companies for the pricing on drugs.  gain, I  can't speak  for  other provinces , but in BC  the  government sets the price the drug stores charge for the drugs. That goes to the government. The  drug stores get a dispensing fee for each prescription.  Non prescription drugs are not covered.  Vanity  surgeries are not covered.  Only medical  necessary  procedures are .  You want a face lift ,  ladies   breast enhancement or reduction, tattoos removed, or any other  non necessary surgery, you are on your own  and pay  whatever the clinic charges.  Yes, the US  could easily institute nationwide  universal  health care.  They could pay  for all sorts of  social programs and infrastructure repair and replacement.   Bring back the tax structure of the  1950's. That is how  America  was made  so  prosperous after WWII.  High earners/ businesses had to  invest in their companies or social programs . like sponsoring hospitals and education to  reduce their taxes.   You want to  complain  about taxes now ,  but back then  the  millionaires  and  some others in the highest brackets were  paying total  income taxes  of over  90% when  state and  Federal  taxes  were combined.  The middle and  lowest  paid  far  less. The big  change  in taxation  began  with Reagan and has ballooned since ..  Now companies  get subsidies and tax breaks  they  don't need to   reinvest in  America .. They  take their money and yours and run offshore with it . Social  programs do not affect your  "Freedom".  They enhance it  by reducing  your financial  worries when  sick  or  injured. They build your roads and  bridges , and maintain  them Unions are not your enemy.  Whether you realize it or not they  are the reason there is a middle  class now.

Unions were formed and people died for them in the early  part of the  20th century.  Study a  little  history on working conditions in the factories and mines  before unions came in ..  I agree some of the big unions now have a problem  with corruption . Some have become more like a company than  a force representing their members for the members benefit,  but that  is not a fault of unions but  of their administration  and too few  members actively working to see the  union is administered  properly at both the  local  and national  level.

 Yes, Biden  is a realist .  He  may have headed  the departments that brought  in legislation you hate;  but  whether you  like it  or not , he really  only has so  much control  over  what the  House and Senate pass. He, like all  single politicians in every level, has only so  much influence and control.  He  may lead , but that doesn't guarantee he will be followed..   Bernie  made  very good points ,  but with the  American  mindset that  any social  program robs from the middle to  support the  poor   and reduces  your "freedoms" you know as well as I  do there is no way in hell he could carry  any of them through. Hillary  was hated, not for what she really did , but for the character assassinations and false accusations  of the  right for over  30  years.  Lies and accusations told for that  long make far too  many accept them  as true. P.T. Barnum  and the  snake oil salesmen  proved that over and over. The Extreme  Right Wing know that very well  and carry it out  far too effectively.

Realistically ,  Bernie would have no chance of bringing in the reforms he espouses  if he  could  get elected.  Yes  I would have liked to  see someone younger   and less tainted  by the establishment,  but Biden  is not as  bad as both the extremes on the  right and on the  left paint him. 

It's going to  be an  "interesting"  election.

Edited by davefrombc
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