Z400 not shifting well

[Chris41586]

I just got a Z400 and took it out for the first time. Seemed to run really well without issues until after I has ridden for a bit. So real quick, I've never owned and barely ridden a quad before. First time riding I got a little ballsy and started doing donuts. Was doing well until I let off the gas too soon by a little hill, and didn't turn quite enough. I went sideways on the hill and rolled her😅. Well I didn't roll too hard, and pretty much just into the right side, and the front brake and throttle pushed down a little, so I had to adjust them back. Shortly after that, I noticed it wasn't going into neutral without screwing around with it, like it kept passing it right to second, and then riding, it doesn't want to shift into third. I tried and different speeds because I thought maybe the rpms have to be up, and it did go in, but didn't seem to be at a certain rev point or speed. Once I get to third it goes right into fourth and fifth. Has anyone else has this issue, and do you think I knocked something out of wack when I rolled it?

[Mech]

Haha.. My man. Way to go.

So if you are happy with doing donuts and rolling I figure you've ridden before.. and I'm not familiar with those models, so it's probably nothing useful, but.....

does it have a manual clutch or a centrifugal/automatic clutch. ? If it's like most quads and an auto clutch then I'd try adjusting it. If it's a manual clutch then I'd guess it's just a matter of getting used to the shifter and the right revs etc to change at. Lots of bikes are a bit hard to get into neutral once the bikes stopped rolling. It pays to slip them into neutral before you come to a stop, or sort of dump the clutch a little so it starts to lurch, then slip it into neutral as the revs and load comes off the gears.

I have seen two wheelers that have been dropped and pushed the gearchange shaft into the case buggering up the shifter till it's pulled apart and repaired, but I don't see how that would happen on a quad.

[Chris41586]

Mech, hope the weekends good! I haven't ridden ATVs all that much, but I had a dirt bike for a couple years when I was ten, and had a jet ski as a teen, so I related the shifting and the leaning to being able to ride and push my weight around. New bike is fast though! I'm not sure which clutch, but maybe I can look it up. I read somewhere that another person was having the same issues, and they weren't changing their oil enough. They said it's ok when they first change the oil. I still have the new oil in from when I bought it, but it is at the bottom of the stick (I wanted to get a little use from the oil before I dump it). This morning I'll fully change it and take her out to see if that helps. 

[Chris41586]

Google says a manual clutch

[Mech]

Morning Chris. I'd think the oil would have to be really old before it effected the clutch badly. We've had wet clutches for a century and they are normally really good. I'd check the adjustment of the clutch. It sounds like it's dragging a little.

 If the adjustment is correct, it could be that the clutch is nearing the end of it's life. A common symptom of a worn clutch is that it drags a bit even when the adjustment's right.. But a worn clutch basket will also cause clutch drag(they get notches where the plates rub, and then the plates can't slide sideways in the basket like they need to as it engages and disengages).. or bent/buckled plates but that's unusual.

I grew up on two wheels. They say that when we ride quads, we have to apply our weight to the outside wheel on turns..We still lean in, but we put the weight on the peg/wheel that will drive us around the way we want to go. If you get more grip on the inside wheel it tries to push us straight ahead.. I've rolled off mine doing donuts in a big mud patch we have over the back.. My sons thought it was too easy doing donuts in two wheel drive so we started doing them in four wheel drive. Then they thought that was so easy.. so they started doing it with the front diff lock on..  We rolled a lot !

[Chris41586]

Sounds like your son is lucky to have a cool dad! I messed with the clutch adjustment a little on the cable, but didn't make a difference. I actually don't think it's the clutch, just because it's not doing it in every gear. Then again, I really don't know how the components function with each other just yet. I read something about a bent tooth or fork somewhere, but not sure which part I need to check. BTW,I appreciate the input you've given me throughout our exchanges!

[Chris41586]

If I'm going to have to dig into this bike too figure out what's going on, do you think the clymer manual is more in simple terms? I found the Suzuki manual in PDF, but it doesn't actually show you how to take it apart

[Mech]

I'd use the genuine manual.

There will be a clutch adjustment on the case somewhere. I'd check that, then the cable. You need to back the cable off, adjust case mechanism, then adjust the cable.

You wouldn't have bent a gear tooth or a shift fork by rolling it. You might have bent the shift shaft where it comes out of the case, but that would be difficult. It should be well protected by foot pegs and bodywork. To check the gear shifter mechanism fully you need to strip the entire engine and split the cases. You can check the shift shaft and probably the shifter ratchet by pulling a side case off, but I really doubt it will be in there.

I suppose you are familiar with changing on a two wheeler without using the clutch ? Well that doesn't work quite as well on a quad, but if you wind it out in every gear and do snappy changes it should work.. Perhaps try that. If that seems to help the changes then it will be using a dragging clutch that causes it. Oh.. just read back and you have tried that.. Clutch's dragging for sure man..

And sons.. Yeah, my wife died when the boys were two and four.. I decided to homeschool, and teach them to ride bikes.. and have fun.. 

Our motto was.. "ya gotta have fun.. but don't get caught ". I taught them to first slide bikes to a stop laying them down, without getting your leg trapped. Then I taught them to do donuts, then donuts with their feet on the pegs. People used to say I taught them to ride well.. I always said I taught them to fall off safely.. haha. The only rule was, "if you want to do dangerous stuff, make sure it's only yourself you are endangering". They, we all, still do dangerous stuff..safely.

[Mech]

Actually... just thinking again.. and some later model honda bikes don't have a case adjustment.. Your's might not.

In that case I'd pull the side case off, check the shifter shaft is free and not bent, and check the clutch. The six or so plates are not too dear.. I'd change the friction plates and check the steel plates are flat on a plate glass or something real flat.

The clutch plates touch the basket they are in, and wear it till there are little grooves that stop the plates moving together and apart as they should. If the wear's not too bad you can clean it up with a file. They also rub on the clutch hub in the center of the clutch and put grooves in there too, but I think that is mainly not such a problem.

[Mech]

And one more thought..  It is returning to a slow idle straight away when you throttle off huh ?

[Chris41586]

Sounds like a great childhood! Minus the loss for your family. Unfortunately I know all about losses as well, but instead of letting it defeat me, I use it as drive to do/be better. 

Yep, the idle goes right back down after hitting the gas or letting off when riding and coasting while holding the clutch in. I'm also baffled a bit if it has to do with rolling, because as you said, everything is pretty well protected. I'm gone 14 hours out of the day right now during the week, because I'm doing a job two hours away and ten hour shifts, so I'll keep doing research and tinkering as I can. Biggest hurdle for me at the moment, is knowing what parts are what, like another language haha. I'm a union carpenter by trade and love to work with my hands, but haven't played with mechanics too much just yet, but definitely determined to figure it out!

[Mech]

Loss is inevitable to all of us Chris.. eventually. I sometimes think that those of us that learn it early do have some benefit from it. Like you, it made me into a better man.

I see you do archery.. That's a fine hobby. I refine myself with sword practice.

Mechanicing is simple..  You'll figure it out if you have to pull it apart. I doubt it's anything damaged internally though. It's not a chain drive is it ? A loose chain makes shifts tricky.

The gears are free to spin on their shafts, and a dog/hub that's on the same shaft but splined to the shaft slides along and engages some lugs on the gear and the dog. That locks the gear to the shaft and transmits the power. If the there's a load on those dogs they resist sliding and disengaging.. which is what's happening with your bike I think.  There isn't really any reason a roll would cause a problem. If the throttle was keeping too many revs on, or the clutch wasn't disengaging, that could cause the load on the sliding parts. Both those problems can be overcome though by reving it out and then doing well timed shifts as you throttle off.. which you say you tried, and which seemed to cure it.. To diagnose it I'd go for a spin on it and rev it out and do clutchless shifts to see if it works ok like that.. If it shifts when I got the timing right then it will be clutch almost certainly.

 

[Mech]

Any luck with this Chris ?

I remembered the other week.. I have seen damaged quad gearboxes from doing donuts.. not rolling though. It was about five years ago and I didn't work on the bike because it had blown the box twice, and my sons told me the owners sons were always doing donuts on it, and the bike was only a year old and had been fixed once already by the dealer. If I'd taken the job on I would have assumed the warranty.. haha.

I also remembered another couple of honda two wheelers that I had fixed. They have/had a gear that was pressed onto a shaft and they could slip on the shaft. The gear could only be taken off and reused twice honda reckoned. One bike  made a squawking noise deep inside when it was under a big load. It was near forty years ago now, but from memory it was second gear. I only found it by putting the shaft in the vice and using a 24 inch pipe wrench on the gear. It made the noise and slipped.

I wonder if your bike still uses a pressed on gear.. You could ask a dealer if they know and if it has been seen before.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Mech

[Chris41586]

Hey Mech! Sorry, I've been really busy with work lately, and doing side jobs as well. I haven't gotten a chance to look deep into it yet, but I did start it up several times and go down the block. The times I speed up fast and hit third at higher RPMs from second, it seems to go in, but still a little rough, and still doesn't want to go when I'm just cruising from second. I had seen a video the other day, where a guy was talking about little grooves being worn into the gears and getting them stuck. He gently filed the them down and it fixed the issue, but he didn't show exactly what was taken apart. He tipped the quad up on the side a little so he didn't have to drain the oil, and it seemed simple, but other things I've seen about tearing it apart said it was going to take hours just to get into it. I need to watch it again and see what exactly he looked into. The issue you just talked about, what do I look for to see if that's the solution? Honestly, I only messed with the adjustment for the clutch on the handle bar lever, but nothing else yet, so I can't rule that out quite yet either. I haven't found many good videos on how to actually maintenance quads yet. I did adjust the chain yesterday because it seemed loose (had a little over 2" of play) but that didn't help. Hmm, maybe tomorrow I'll get a chance to look into it more. Diagnosing the issues was never my strong suit in mechanics haha. Once I figure it out, I can change things, but I really have to learn how everything works together, and then I'll know what's not functioning properly. 

[Mech]

No problem my friend.. just thought I'd add those after thoughts.

If it changes better though when you wind it out and do snappy changes it really keeps sounding like a clutch problem. Hard to find neutral also sounds like a clutch dragging problem. When clutches get worn one of the first signs, before they start slipping, is for them to drag. Practice your gear changes without using the clutch and just throttling off to change up and giving it a rev to change down. If you get the revs and speed right for the gear you are in they should change nicely. That would prove it's the clutch.

I don't know what gears that guy you mentioned was talking about, but gears are too hard to file. If he did it with the engine tipped over it must have been in behind the clutch cover, the actual gearbox though is right in the center of the two main cases. Hopefully you wouldn't need to do that because it's a total engine strip.

I think you should try and get a manual and check whether there is a clutch adjustment on the cases, probably a screw and locknut. If the cable is the only adjustment, and it is adjusted right, then I think you are going to need to pull the side case off and check/overhaul the clutch. That's a relatively simple and cheap job. All you should need is a set of friction plates and a gasket. If you are lucky, it will even be do-able with the engine in place.

Unfortunately we don't have those models here in NZ, but if you need a hand I've done dozens of clutches on hondas and should be able to help a bit with a picture or description. I'll keep an eye out pending your getting around to it.

Cheers.

 

Oh and the issue I was just talking about is deep inside the gearbox..  Forget that.. haha.

I really think(given what you've just said about riding it some more) that it's a clutch problem.

[Mech]

Lol... and just remembered we are talking suzuki..  Don't worry.. I've done a lot of them too.. and honda, yamaha, kawasaki, ajs, bsa, norton, triumph, harley, matchless, bmw, duke..  puch, vespa, james, philips..  probably some others.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Mech

[Chris41586]

Hey Mech, so I don't see any adjustments besides the cable, so I YouTube some clutch videos, and you're right about it being the clutch I was talking about, and not the gears. I'm not familiar with all the parts and how they function just yet, so sorry if I'm hard to understand or not explaining well. Anyways, I just watched a couple videos on clutch replacement, and they tipped the bike on the side to avoid draining the oil and coolant, and opened the clutch case to replace the spacers, along with what I assume are the clutch disks? They had little grooves and had to fit in there in a certain way and order. Is that what you're saying to look at, and if so, what am I looking for? Maybe I should just change them out if I'm going to open it up? The part I said the guy filed before, was in that box I believe, but it wasn't the disks I don't think. I feel like it was what the disks slide onto. I'll have to find the video again. 

 

BTW, are you in New Zealand? 

[Chris41586]

 Not sure if this will post, but here's the video I was talking about if you want to check it out. 

[Chris41586]

This kid is saying that sometimes it's a result of using the "wrong" oil, along with natural wear. Well, remember my first post here, was about the owner using 5W instead of 10W? That may be the issue, although I guess I'm not sure. Something I just thought about

[Mech]

Morning Chris. Yes I'm in N.Z.. And yes that's the clutch basket he's holding in his hands, which is the bit I was saying might need the wear taking out of.

The steel plates can be checked for flatness and obvious wear. The friction plates you replace. Both the hub and the basket the plates fit into, need to be checked for wear where the plates press. The basket's normally the worse and easiest cleaned up with a fine file. The new clutch plates must be soaked in oil before they get fitted.

I'm pretty sure it will be your clutch that's the problem.

I don't really think the wrong grade oil will often be a problem to a clutch. Wet clutches can run in a lot of oil, thick or thin, and they can operate nearly dry. Having the wrong grade might make the clutch drag slightly when it's cold, but it should come right when it warms up.

 

[Chris41586]

Wow, I didn't realize I'm getting help from a guy halfway around the world! Haha, well I definitely appreciate it. I might be tripping, or maybe a coincidence, but I thought my clutch adjustment was already loose, so I looked it up. The manual says between .4 and .6 inches, so about a half an inch. Well it was only around a quarter inch. I loosened it up as much as I can, and it's right under a half an inch. I went down the street, and it worked! But then... It worked off and on. I don't get it. Maybe I need to figure out how to loosen it just a little more, or it just happened to work, and I still have to take it apart. I wanted to try that beforehand, so if not, I'll rip it apart tomorrow. It's nighttime here, so I'm tinkering in the porch light. I'll let you know what I figure out

[Chris41586]

So here's what's weird, I wanted to see what difference it made by tightening the clutch as well, and I could tell immediately that it's an issue being too tight. It wouldn't go anywhere until I let completely off the clutch. So I loosened it as much as I could again, the same place I had it when I just messaged you before, but now it seems like it's shifting hard all around. Even trying to get into neutral, it's hard to shift, and then goes right to second. So I have to turn it off, and then immediately goes into neutral easy. I don't get it. I for sure need to pull the clutch apart and check it out huh?

[Mech]

It certainly sounds like a dragging clutch Chris. It should be better with less freeplay in the handlebar lever.. If you let the lever off and pull the cable it should have about 1/4 inch play i reckon. You need to check the cable isn't snagging inside with broken strands of wire. If you give the adjuster a lot of slack, the outer should be able to slide the range of it's travel in operation, so perhaps 3/4 inch.  If all that's good and the adjustment has been put back to minimum slack, and the clutch drags so it's hard to find neutral, then it's time to inspect the clutch.

 

If you get a manual it should show you an exploded view of the clutch. The shaft that operates the clutch works as a cam and only has a very limited travel. Once the clutch plates wear beyond a certain point the cam has trouble operating correctly. New plates will put it back within it's designed travel range.

[Chris41586]

Quick update. I just pulled the clutch cover, and the first thing I see, is a chunk of metal floating around. Haven't found what it's from yet, but hopefully nothing serious. Obviously not good though

[Chris41586]

That's a piece of third gear broken off. I have to split the case😢

[Mech]

Ok.. Well that's a bit nasty..  When you start taking parts out of the cases, lay them all out in the order they come out.. Top parts away from you, lower parts closer to you on the bench, parts that come off shafts layed at the end of the shafts they come from, all the gears and spacers layed out in the order they go on the shafts. It saves a lot of checking and worrying if you know where they all go back in. 

[Chris41586]

That's sounds like a good way to set up. I definitely need to be Methodical and clear an area. I took the time to label everything I've done so far with the clutch, and even labeled the screws to which hole, because I saw they're different lengths.