JustRandy

When mine first failed I replaced it with another from a LT4WD and it lasted a couple months before also failing.  If Buddy wants to go down that road then it's his choice, so long as he's making an informed decision knowing the reliability issues of OEM regulators.

I decided to fix it for good with a lifetime warrantied Rick's electronics one that can handle 50 amps.  It cost $150 but I wasn't going to spare any expense considering the work I had already put into the rest of the quad.  There are many cheaper options to consider.  The one I bought was intended for a Triumph motorcycle so I suppose he could buy any old regulator for a street bike and consider it an upgrade.

The manifolds can be found both as new aftermarket and new OEM, as well as used OEM.  I agree that new aftermarket is better than used OEM, but the option exists to buy new OEM if he wants.

That's great you're making progress.  If the air filter let dirt pass then it could have acted as an abrasive on the intake valve and once the hardness is worn off the valve surface it wears down pretty quick.  And since the gap is only .001 there doesn't need to be much wear to start producing symptoms.

If you do get a new valve make sure it's made in Japan, like Vesrah.  http://www.vesrah.tokyo/product-line/engine-valves/

I think you can get new OEM intake boots too, but used may be ok.  With air filters I stick with foam because paper falls apart, especially if it gets wet.

Another guy on here bought an amazon regulator and it fixed his problem for cheap but I wouldn't recommend buying another OEM regulator because they all are prone to the same problem.  I bought one from Rick's https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/  But I guess it depends on your plans for the quad and your budget.  I have 2 winches and bunch of lights so I told Rick's I wanted the biggest they had.

7 hours ago, Mel22 said:

small hole in the intake tube between the carb and the head

I drilled a hole in mine then installed a small bolt with a hole drilled through it then slide a tube over it and that's what powers my fuel pump.  I don't have the stock carb so I needed to tap in somewhere.

Manifold leaks are definitely something to look for.  Every now n then mine wont start and after popping off the seat I find the carb fell off lol.

16 minutes ago, BuddyLee said:

Is it worth changing that part?  Or just flick on lights when burps again?

All those regulators from the 90s are assumed to be bad.  The net is littered with threads about it.  The issue is so common it really should be a sticky at the top.

The regulator is by the top of the handlebar stem on the frame.  You can pop it off and look at the epoxy on the back.  If it looks swollen or cracked then there is your problem.

Or you could put a voltmeter on the battery and see if the voltage goes up to 16 or higher when the engine revs.  If it goes higher than 14.4 then your regulator is bad.

23 minutes ago, BuddyLee said:

Now it’s having a hard time starting though…cleaned plug, bluish spark, so definitely fuel related…stupid thing is once it does start it runs reasonable and has no issue restarting…

That sounds like your intake valve is not closing.  Hard starting when cold, but starting fine when warm, means the intake valve isn't closing.  It means there is no gap between the rocker and the valve stem.  You can wiggle the rocker and see if there is any gap.  You can either find TDC on the compression stroke or just pull the cord while randomly looking for any gap anywhere.

If there is no gap then back the lash screw off some and see if that helps your starting issues.  It doesn't have to be exact.  The spec is .001 - .003 but I've run as high as 1/8 inch or more.   You just need to see if that is the problem so setting it perfect doesn't matter at this point.  Just make it loose so you know for sure the valve is closing.

If that is the problem then your intake valve is toast and you will need to re-cut the valve seat and buy a new valve.  Otherwise you will constantly be resetting the lash as the valve wears down.  I've gone about a year doing that, but eventually the valve will pop through the seat.  Replacing the valve won't help because you have to re-cut the seat or the new valve will wear down also.

Both the regulator and intake valve are common problems on these machines.

I'd also want to peek at the cam lobes through the valve lash caps and see if there is any obvious wear.  If the engine has ever run out of oil then it doesn't take long to destroy a cam.  Been there, done that.

Turn the headlights on and see if that helps.

Anyone who owns an old suzuki 300 or 250 4x4 should always check the regulator.

The regulator goes bad allowing the voltage to spike up to 16-18 volts with rpms which prevents the cdi from functioning and you will be chasing your tail forever trying to find the problem.  Turning on the headlights lowers the voltages and helps the engine rev higher.

If the intake valve were the problem then it would be very difficult to start the engine when cold.  Since it starts ok then it's probably the regulator.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

Yeah yeah yeah Randy... have a good day.. Go ride your bike or something..

I can't.  I have to change my starter brushes

But thanks for the well wishes man.  You have a good day too.

2 minutes ago, Mech said:

" Lithium batteries like to be drawn down to 60% and charged up to 80% for maximum life." Oh really.. and where did you read that?

 "Discharging them beyond 50% causes them irreparable harm.". Oh.. your opinion again or did you read that somewhere online ?

Those are the claims made by the IEEE publication which you're so desperate to refute with absolutely no reference or reasoning whatsoever.

As I said, we have a chainsaw manual + IEEE publication -vs- some old dude in New Zealand patting himself on the back.

You've brought nothing to the table other than "believe me because I'm old."

Just now, Mech said:

And a quick read up on the beloved Researchgate reveals that it doesn't do any testing, or verifying. it links to people's published works, peer reviewed on not... and..

Is ResearchGate credible?

There are credible researchers with strong records of good quality peer-reviewed publications, even the occasional Nobel prize-winner, who are signed up to ResearchGate. But there are also many others with much weaker publication records, and contributions of doubtful value.

You just keep making yourself look more desperate.  The publication is IEEE and is mirrored on researchgate.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7488267

Publisher: IEEE

Try again.

1 minute ago, Mech said:

nothing in either of the manuals you quote say anything about not fully recharging the battery

And neither did I.  I said to charge to 100% and discharge no lower than 60%.

2 minutes ago, Mech said:

or only operating them through a narrow range of mid-charge.

Yes they did.  "Avoid low discharge cycles by charging the battery pack frequently".

3 minutes ago, Mech said:

As with carbies, and diagnosing charging systems, or electrical faults in general, you prefer your opinions over the conventional wisdom and proven best practice.

Yes, you embarrassed yourself thoroughly on those threads too.

I thought you may have learned when to keep silent when you didn't know what you were talking about.

Since everyone loves manuals so much, here's my chainsaw manual.  I took these pics for a stubborn friend I had who just couldn't believe it.

So we have a chainsaw manual + IEEE publication from battery University -vs- some old dude in New Zealand patting himself on the back.

If you're still too stubborn then, by all means, disregard all this and discharge your lithium batteries.

3 minutes ago, Ulfthednar said:

oh . . hes arguing on the basis of his logic skills, not experience.

Evidently you missed where I said I had laptop batteries 20+yrs and never had experienced a dead lithium battery in spite of owning lots of lithium power tools.

But feel free to treat your lithium batteries differently and see how you fare.

1 minute ago, Mech said:

And what did your phone manual say about charging and discharging ?

Before using the device, fully charge the battery.
Connect one end of the charging cable to the charger, insert the other end
of the cable into the cable port, and then plug the charger into a power
socket.

•     Ensure that the inside of the device does not make contact with a
metallic object or water.
•     Do not charge while the device or charging cable is wet or contains
moisture. This can cause fire, electric shock, injury or damage to device.
If there is moisture, stop using the device immediately and remove the
moisture completely.
•     Do not use unapproved USB cables or chargers with your device. The
LG limited warranty does not cover damage caused by the use of third
party accessories.
•     Using the device when it is charging may cause electric shock. To use the
device, stop charging it.
•     Remove the charger from the power socket after the device is fully
charged. This prevents unnecessary power consumption.
•     Another way to charge the battery is by connecting a USB cable
between the device and a desktop or laptop computer. This may take a
longer time than plugging the adapter to a wall outlet.
•     Do not charge the battery by using a USB hub that is unable to maintain
the rated voltage. Charging may fail or unintentionally stop.
•     Since the battery is a consumable, the battery life may be shortened as
time goes.
Using the battery efficiently
battery lifespan may decrease if you keep many apps and functions
running simultaneously and continuously.
Stop apps and functions from running in the background to increase
battery life.
To minimize battery consumption, follow these tips:
•     Turn off the Bluetooth® or Wi-Fi network function when not using
them.
•     Set the screen timeout to as short a time as possible.

•     Minimize the screen brightness.
•     Set a screen lock when the device is not in use.
•     Check the battery level while using any downloaded apps.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

And just as a matter of interest Randy.. do you have a profession, a trade, some experience in any industry at all relevant to the things we discuss in here ?

Even if I designed and built lithium batteries for 30 years it would still be completely irrelevant to publications in IEEE.

What part of appealing to yourself as an authority being irrelevant do you not understand?

Your choices are these:

1) Cite some publication from a respected engineering journal refuting my claim.

2) Come up with some rationale based on physical laws that demonstrate my claims cannot be true.

Patting yourself on the back and rummaging through phone manuals doesn't cut it.

3 minutes ago, Mech said:

Lol..  I know some things well Randy.. It's my job.

What relevance does underwater basket weaving have to lithium batteries?

Even if your job were designing and building lithium batteries, your opinion still would not supersede publications in IEEE.

3 minutes ago, Mech said:

Do you have a smart phone Randy ?  Did you read it's owners manual ?

Yes

37 minutes ago, Gwbarm said:

What I do know about lithium batteries, if you run the battery down to much the charger sees it as bad and won't charge it, hence you have to put voltage back in it from another battery, then the charger will recognize it as good and charge it up.

I've seen youtube videos about that, but thankfully I haven't had a bad lithium battery to try it on.

A guy called into a radio show to complain about batteries.   He said he was a professional landscaper and spent $1000s on battery tools, then all the batteries failed.  I was thinking "yep, he probably ran the batteries down all the way."  Those tools aren't made for pros, but they're perfect for homeowners.  Anyway his point was all the EV cars will be headed for the landfill pretty soon, based on his experience with power tools.

I have lots of AA and AAA NiMH batteries that run trail cams and sometimes one battery won't charge in the modern computerized 10-bay charger I have, so I put the dead one in an old charger from 20 yrs ago that essentially forces it to charge.  After a few seconds in the old charger, they will charge in the modern charger.  But those are the old Nimh batteries that they say to run down all the way, and then some, to dissolve the crystals that build up.  Killing them is actually good for them, they say.

I think a lot of confusion comes up, especially among people who grew up with the older NiMH batteries that had to be run down all the way, regarding how to treat the newer lithium batteries.  They're essentially opposite.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

Your cut-n-paste text contradicts the graph Randy..

No it doesn't.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

You tell me I'm naive to believe what "big corporations", say, because according to you, they can lie, but you believe anything on the internet that supports your misguided opinions.

I said manufacturers can say anything, but not anything can get published in a respected IEEE journal.

IEEE journals are not just "anything on the internet".

I'm surprised a know-it-all such as yourself hasn't heard of it https://www.ieee.org/publications/

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

It's no matter though, because we are discussing starting batteries.. and we would like to think that if we had a decent sort of vehicle the battery would never get down below the twenty-five percent discharge that the manufacturers say doesn't qualify as any discharge cycle..

Did you forget winches?  So no, we're not just discussing starting batteries, which are batteries designed to deliver a lot of amps in short bursts.  Winches can continuously draw in excess of what charging systems can deliver.

For instance, I have the biggest regulator Rick's Electronics sells, which can only handle 50 amps.  My winch can draw 300 amps.  With the winch it's as if I have no charging system at all.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

I'm a mechanic and was taught about batteries and trained in their care, and I've worked on thousands of machines and diagnosed hundreds of charging and battery problems, I've been off grid using batteries for power for.. er.. about thirty-eight years..  How far beyond the internet does your education and experience with batteries go Randy ?

How much of that time in ancient history was devoted to modern lithium batteries?

Just like the carb thread and regulator thread you're desperately trying to portray yourself as an expert, and by doing so you're coming across as quite the opposite.  I suspect the third time won't be the charm.

12 minutes ago, Mech said:

You didn't get that graph, or information from a battery manufacturer, now did you Randy...

It's battery university which is sponsored by Cadex.

"Cadex has been recognized as a world leader in battery testing, and the advanced battery analyzers, chargers and monitoring devices the company makes are proof of this strength."  https://batteryuniversity.com/about-us

And the graph originally came from published research https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303890624_Modeling_of_Lithium-Ion_Battery_Degradation_for_Cell_Life_Assessment

A manufacturer could say anything, but not anything can get published in a respected IEEE journal.

12 minutes ago, Mech said:

But it came from the internet and so must be right eh..

No, it disagrees with what you think so it must be wrong.

I'll believe battery university.  You believe whatever you want.

3 hours ago, davefrombc said:

A good maintainer will not boil a battery out.

They're the battery Minder brand.  I used to buy a couple each black friday and now I have a bunch of them and no use for them.  I'm leery of anything keeping the battery voltage above what it wants to be because it will evaporate the water out eventually.  I wouldn't trust anything unless it turned itself off for weeks until the voltage dropped sufficiently.

3 hours ago, davefrombc said:

A SLA battery doesn't leak  in ATV service and in my opinion  is by far the best choice  for price and ATV reliability.

I agree with you there.  I will try SLA next.  I'm currently using gel and it's been working fine for years.  I've burned up many starters during using that battery.  Speaking of that I need to swap brushes right now.  I have to hold the starter button and rock the atv to get the starter moving.  Happens every couple years.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

But Randy, just about everything you said about lithium is exactly the opposite of correct.

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

Bouncing between 75% and 65% gets the most life from the battery.  75/45 is lower and 75/25 is lower still. 

100/25 is the worst, so taking a fully charged battery and running it down to 25% is the worst thing you can do.

Since I can't stop the charger from charging to 100% because I can't sit and watch it, the only thing I can do is stop it from going below 60%, which is roughly 2 bars out of 4 on my power tools.

"Similar to a mechanical device that wears out faster with heavy use, the depth of discharge (DoD) determines the cycle count of the battery. The smaller the discharge (low DoD), the longer the battery will last. If at all possible, avoid full discharges and charge the battery more often between uses. Partial discharge on Li-ion is fine. There is no memory and the battery does not need periodic full discharge cycles to prolong life."

On 11/22/2022 at 2:02 AM, davefrombc said:

Lithium  batteries can be drawn down to  nearly their full capacity  without  similar degradation,

I don't think that is true.  Lithium batteries like to be drawn down to 60% and charged up to 80% for maximum life.  Discharging them beyond 50% causes them irreparable harm.  I have lithium chainsaws, weedeaters, leaf blowers, hedge trimmers and never ever let them go beyond 2 bars out of 4.  I also have laptop batteries that have lasted 20 years by observing that rule.  Anytime my phone is down to 60% - 70% I plug it in.

Lithium batteries can last indefinitely if they are not discharged.

Another problem with lithium is charging them cold results in an overcharged condition when they warm up, so they may not make a good atv battery without a computer to account for temperature changes.

On 11/22/2022 at 2:02 AM, davefrombc said:

If you want  long service life out of lead acid batteries , they need to be kept on a  maintainer when  not in use. 

I used to use maintainers over winter but they only evaporated the water out of the batteries which ruined the plates.  I found it's better to charge them up periodically then let them sit in between charges.

On 11/22/2022 at 2:34 PM, Mech said:

Lead batteries are just so robust, they can handle misuse so much better, with far less risk of disaster.

Yes that's why I like them but the downside is they spill acid and rust my frame.  I've tried various tubes and containers to catch the acid while still venting the air but haven't found anything that works yet.  Maybe SLA is the way to go.  I'm currently using gel and so far so good.  AGM left me stranded on top of a mountain after it just quit, so I'm leery of them.  I'd prefer something that gradually got weaker to give me warning rather than to suddenly stop working with no warning.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

I could write a book here on rigging safety and do's and dont's

If you did I would read it.  I appreciate you taking time to write what you have.  I feel like my intuitions were pretty close.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

wire ropes and cables wear from the inside out

So oiling them is the right thing to do?  I try to get oil to soak into the cable so when it bends and flexes it doesn't wear itself so much.  The downside is the oil attacks dirt which acts as sandpaper, though I'm not sure how much dirt finds its way inside the cable.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

if the individual ropes in it are NOT flattened,it is still good to go

Yep the flattened part is where mine broke.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

when they become a lighter color then original,they are taken out of service

I have noticed the color change and associated it with a weak strap.  There is also a sound change when strummed like a guitar string.  The pitch is higher like dry leaves.  My intuition is some oil evaporated from the plastic leaving it brittle.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

Nylon and synthetic will stretch in a lot of abuse too,which weakens them

Yeah that was my big worry.  I don't want something that stretches.

2 hours ago, Ironworker709 said:

The general sandards of rigging by ANSI standards is 5 times the WLL before failure,so rigging with a WLL of 1000 lbs is supposed to handle a load of 5000 lbs before complete failure..BUT,,just becasue it does not fail and overloaded,,does NOT mean it is still rated for the WLL,,it is now much weaker.

So it's like the torque-to-yield head bolts then.  Once the bolts are stretched to their yield point they will no longer apply the same clamping force and must be replaced.  I wonder how anyone can tell a cable has been overloaded?  I guess that explains the 5x safety factor.

2 hours ago, Ironworker709 said:

One of them is the general say that if using synthetic rope is to use a Hause fairlead...i totaly disagree,that creates serious friction and heat,i always use a roller fairlead on any type of rigging

Me too.  I thought the hawse recommendation was odd.

Given what I've learned so far I think I'm stinking with steel.  Plastic may be ok for recreational use but I do too many unconventional things with winches to trust plastic.  It could slip off the side of a pulley and rip itself apart.  One time dragging a log through the woods may destroy it.

I've heard a lot of stories about cables breaking.  I've seen guys drape carpet over the taught winch line to slow it down should it break.  But I think as long as the cable is sized properly for the job then there isn't much to worry about. 

You said "what can happen when  pulling a stuck vehicle by the hitch ball on the net for example".  That to me says people have no idea of the force they are putting on the cable because a vehicle yanking is impossible to know.  Whereas a winch has a certain strength that can be matched to the cable.  Those are two different scenarios.

I think if you know what your winch is capable of and you size your cable and gear with a factor of safety to match the winch then there isn't much to worry about.

For towing vehicles I made a cable with a spring that must be stretched out before the cable becomes taught.  It helps absorb some of the shocks.

Good points Dave and Mech.

I'm not sure about the stretch either.  I saw a Modern Marvels program on History's youtube channel about synthetic ropes exceeding the strength of steel.  They showed one being tested and seemed like the breaking was fairly violent.

Here it is.  It should be cued up.

I've always heard steel cables are dangerous but haven't witnessed it in my experience.  I have a laboratory press with a gauge on it that I used to break a brand new cable.  If memory serves it seems like it more or less stretched apart, uneventfully, right at the force the manufacturer said it would.  The only other time was my dump trailer cable broke because is was so frayed and flattened.  I suspect that if a cable is worn pretty bad then when it breaks it won't recoil as bad as a new cable.  So I feel like as long as I'm well under the capacity of the cable then I should never have anything to worry about.  Usually in engineering they use the 20% rule, so if a cable is rated at 1000lb, they never subject it to more than 200lb.  That's why winch cables that come with new winches are the size they are, which well exceeds what the winch is capable of.

But I have no experience with plastic.  My only experience is nylon rope and nylon ratchet straps, which are notorious for breaking, especially when they get kinda old.  Maybe the oils evaporate from the plastic?

I try to keep my steel cables oiled.  I just dump oil on the spool and let it soak in.  That way when the cable bends the strands don't grind on each other.

6 hours ago, Gwbarm said:

I have one of the smaller ones shown in your photos, it always works but it seems to really work hard pulling no where close to its limit , especially if your loading an ATV that won't roll, which I do occasionally, I am going to get one of the larger ones, im always afraid the cable is going to break, thanks for the info and photos.

Those are the el cheapo variety that work ok for light use.  I actually have a box of broken ones.  It's the transmission that fails.  The only good thing about them is the price and they're small.  I used to find the 5000lb ones on ebay for under $100.  And whoever sells the badlands brand used to have black friday deals or coupons.  Not sure if they still do.

I have 3 of them and wouldn't mind having another as a spare.  As soon as I get one I pull the transmission off and inspect the grease situation.  Sometimes at the factory they don't put enough in or I don't like the looks of it so I repack it with good grease.  I've heard good things about bel-ray waterproof grease.

I've always been meaning to try the synthetic line but just never got around to it I guess.  Maybe it was too expensive or seemed kinda fragile.  Those nylon ratchet straps tend not to last long.  They always get a tear, usually close to the hook so I can't just cut a little off and use the rest lol.

Steel cables really do suck.  They can't be tied in knots, sharp bends kink them, and worst of all they fray and the wires poke out like needles ready to stab me in the hand.  But I've never had one break and almost never need to change them unless there's just too many wires sticking out.  And they are the engineers' choice for building bridges, maybe because the plastic cables would be too bouncy.  I guess elasticity was another concern of mine: if they break do they recoil like sling shots?

For tightening fences I would park the atv with the brakes on and hit a button.  With a steel cable I could get precise force, but feel like the plastic would stretch making precise movements difficult.  I'm just guessing though.

I use winches more for work than for getting unstuck from playing, which often involves things the designers of the plastic line didn't have in mind while designing line.

The dump trailer is a 3500lb axle from tractor supply with atv tires.  I originally used a swing arm from a quad but that didn't last long carrying a ton of dirt lol.  Many things I tried didn't last long, including the frame until I used three 4x4 timbers for the base.  Then 5 or 6 of those 3 inch strap hinges from the hardware store.  The pole is some kind of threaded tube about 2.5-3 inches and 5-6 ft long.  I welded up a big pulley for the top and threaded it on.  I like the threads so I can add sections if I want.  Right now it's just perfect to drive under the rolled up door of the garage without hitting the door, but I can add another foot or so if needed to raise the bed extra high for really sticky mud that doesn't want to fall out.

The winch is wired to a 3 pronged electrical house plug that plugs into an outlet on the quad.  I unplug the rear winch and plug in the trailer winch so I can use the same controls for either.  I always change my winch plugs to house plugs so I can use extension cords.  House outlets usually come in pairs so I wired the other plug to the battery so I can plug in a charger or another battery very easily.

I've hauled many many many tons of dirt with that trailer.  And firewood each year.

I use wedges for trees too, but sometimes I need a winch or at least a long rope to tug on.  For instance I need to take out a large tree that I don't want to fall on other trees, so my plan is to make a cut halfway up the tree about halfway through the tree then pull the top down from the safety of the ground.  If everything goes as planned the top of the tree will ease over and hang from the hing-wood.  Then I can lop the branches off before tearing the rest to the ground with the power of the winch.  I've been pondering that job for years now.

I always advise people to stay active as long as they can because it seems like once they stop then they never start up again.

I don't have any experience with anything other than steel cable, but I've used winches for lots of things other than getting unstuck.  I used a winch to raise the trusses for a steel building I built.  I used a winch to raise a tree stand.  I often use winches to pull on trees, like if one happens to sit down on my chainsaw bar.  Sometimes I cut a tree halfway and use a winch to pull it down in the direction I want it to go.  I built a dump trailer to haul dirt that uses a winch and a pole to raise the bed and I dug a whole pond with that contraption.  And of course I built that camping trailer with a winch.  There are more uses than I can think of off the top of my head.

Usually when I'm stuck it's because I have a lot of weight in the trailer and one wheel happens to sink in a hole or something like that.  I just need a shove to get rolling.

Yep, long and skinny is better than short and fat.

My neighbor Mr Beanie McWeenie goes to the dealership and demands the biggest of whatever they sell.  He drives a giant diesel truck just to go to the corner store for a beer several times a day and I swear his UTV has 3 rows of seats; it looks like a station wagon without the body.  And the trailer he uses to haul it makes it look like a toy.  If he has a winch I'm sure it's powered by a big block V8.  You'd think after a while he'd realize he's sending all the wrong messages.

I think whatever rope I used I'd still want the larger spool just to have a bigger one than the other guy :p

That and when I get stuck it seems the closest tree is often more than 50ft away.

I found some old pics.

Here it is spooled up with 100ft of smaller-but-still-sufficient cable:

Looks like it weighs 28lbs.  The springs are just something I made to hold the cable flat against the spool.

That's the best winch I could find 10 yrs ago.  The line speed is super fast, the line release mechanism is nice, the spool is pretty big, it has all the power an atv frame could handle, doesn't draw a lot of amps, and it sounds a bit like an RC car which is kinda cool.