2009 Arctic Cat 550H1 EFI TRV

[chadh]

I have had this ATV since new, and no work done on the system before. It has an intermittent issue with starting for years but getting worse. Cranks but no start or have to cycle power. No Codes. There are times it starts right up and then times it will not start at all.

What I have done, new plug, new battery, new coil. Also, the manual I have has spec info for the H1 & H2, but when I check ohms & AC voltage & wire color, it is more in line with the H2 than H1.  

Ok here is what I have done.

1. new plug then new battery.

2. checked and replaced the coil- primary was 5ohms and secondary was 20.4K ohms. Since my book said for the H1 the Primary should be less than 1ohm I replaced (new one had the same 5ohms, confused! H2 says 4.8ohms). Book says secondary should be 12k-20k ohms and it was 20K ohms. New coil did not correct the issue.

3. Stator, AC output while running was good, about 75 volts AC no load between the three yellow wires (but mine are gray wires like the H2). Ohms were also less than 1 ohm.

4. Crankshaft position Sensor. Again, H1 should have Blue & White but I have Blue & Green like the H2. I have 180 ohms across the Blue & Green wires, so this is good. But when cranking I have 2 volts AC. For the H1 book says 5 volts AC. But H2 says 2 volts AC.

So, is my position sensor putting out low voltage or do I have the stator assy for an H2 in my H1 ATV from new?  Stator & position sensor are one assy. Has this ever been an issue that was noted? New Stator is $$$ so I don’t want to just shotgun a part. 

Any help would be great!

Thanks

Chad

 

[mikeexplorer]

When you replaced the coil, did you buy the whole unit (including the spark plug cap?) or just the coil? I would measure the resistance of the cap only. You mentioned a 20K reading which is high for the coil, but if your including the cap, that will throw the reading off.

Your attachments were too small to read. Looks like your stator is outputting as it should. I would check the regulator. Once the machine is started, check the voltage to make sure it does not exceed 15 volts. High voltage will cause EFI machines to act weird.

I have not known of issues with the stator and position sensors. One test you can do is when it does not want to start, pull the spark plug and verify you do indeed are getting spark.

Another thing to check is your fuel pump, make sure you have enough PSI for the injector. Since your machine is older, I would suspect the fuel pump is not providing enough PSI for the injector to work.

Mike

 

[chadh]

Hi Mike,

Reading on the coil did not include the plug cap, the cap did check good on its own. I replacement coil did not include the plug cap. 

I have a spark checker in line, when it wont start it does not have spark or very week spark. When it does start after it is running it has a very strong spark, why would it change that much? It is a new battery and voltage stays up. I have even tried keeping it on a battery tender to make sure battery is topped off. 

How does the position sensor trigger the spark, if it is only putting out 2 volts and should be 5 volts is this going to give me a week spark, meaning does this voltage what is powering the coil?  

I have not checked fuel pressure, but i do smell gas after a bit of cranking. 

will try to attached pictures again. 

Thanks

 

[mikeexplorer]

Now you need to look at the schematic. I attached it. The position sensor's output is routed into the CDI box, out of that it goes to the coil to produce the spark.

The actual output from the sensor might not be the issue, it is a trigger signal to the CDI to produce an output voltage to the coil. If I remember right, its around 350 volts. (your service manual will tell you this) I was troubleshooting a 2010 366 two weeks ago for hard starting issues and remember testing the coil.

You need to be able to first measure the position sensor's output when your cranking and when it finally starts, does the voltage change?

Next, check the primary side of the coil, the procedure is in the manual as well, but you need a meter that can record the peak voltage since its not a constant output.

You need to see if the output from the CDI is changing when your cranking to when it finally catches and starts.

Although you said you have a new battery, I would have it load tested to verify, places like Autozone will do it for free.  As a quick test, connect jumper cables from your quads battery to a vehicle battery BUT DO NOT START THE VEHICLE! Then try to start the quad. The increased cold crank amps will tell you if its the battery.

On a side not, check battery connections and such for corrosion. Since its an older machine, going over the connections and cleaning them and adding some dielectric grease would be a good idea, voltage could be dipping down due to resistance caused by corrosion. EFI machines are finicky when it comes to voltage. 

You can get some electronic contact cleaner spray and dielectric grease at any auto parts store.

 

Mike

 

[chadh]

Finally got back to this project, sorry for the delay.

You need to be able to first measure the position sensor's output when your cranking and when it finally starts, does the voltage change? 2.3Volts AC when cranking / will not start at all now, guess this is good at least it is hard failed.

Next, check the primary side of the coil, the procedure is in the manual as well, but you need a meter that can record the peak voltage since its not a constant output. Primary side 197ohms / there is battery voltage when key is on, drops down to 10.8 Volts DC when cranking. I think I maybe missing something with your description, peak voltage is just battery voltage here?

You need to see if the output from the CDI is changing when your cranking to when it finally catches and starts. What should this output be?  I was clipped onto the two wires that go to the primary coil and just saw battery voltage when I was cranking, I am thinking I should see the voltage come and go so that the field collapses. 

Although you said you have a new battery, I would have it load tested to verify, places like Autozone will do it for free.  As a quick test, connect jumper cables from your quads battery to a vehicle battery BUT DO NOT START THE VEHICLE! Then try to start the quad. The increased cold crank amps will tell you if its the battery. Voltage min when cranking was 11.53. I did connect a battery with jumpers and did not see a change. 

On a side not, check battery connections and such for corrosion. Since its an older machine, going over the connections and cleaning them and adding some dielectric grease would be a good idea, voltage could be dipping down due to resistance caused by corrosion. EFI machines are finicky when it comes to voltage. I have cleaned most of the connecters I could see with no flash cleaner and then applied ACF-50.

 

Thanks for your time!

Chad

[mikeexplorer]

I meant to measure the peak voltage the primary side of the coil is getting. On my 366 which would be similar it is around 375 volts.

Starting to look like the CDI may be bad if your only seeing battery voltage

 

 

[chadh]

Thanks for the reply Mike,

Correct me if I am wrong (and I maybe), 12volt (battery voltage) is what is provided to the primary side of the ignition coil. Power + is coming through the ignition relay-fuse-to coil primary +. Then the Ground - comes from the CDI, I am guessing that the CDI uses the ground as the "signal" wire to spark the plug (removed the ground, primary field collapse then secondary field collapse and released high voltage for spark). Now when cranking battery voltage is always at coil, shouldn't it be opening and closing as it is cranking, based on position sensor?

[chadh]

Update-not sure why I did not try this before. I pulled the plug and just cranked it while against the case (before I was using an inline spark plug checker) and had spark. I had a spare plug so I installed it but left the lead on the plug grounded on the case, and had no spark. So the engine cranks a bit slower when it is compression and therefore not spinning the engine fast enough for the crankshaft sensor and cdi, this is what I am guessing. I will check the starter connections tomorrow and make sure they are clean. Also, will check resistance on the cables. When a starter wears out could it spin slower? Guess I have just seen them stop. At least I am not looking at a new cdi!

[mikeexplorer]

The service manual gives you the specs for what the voltage should be at the primary side of the coil, but you need a meter that can record peak voltage to see it.

It must be in range since you are seeing spark. Make sure its a strong spark.

Yes the starter may be spinning slower under load if the brushes are wearing out, but check connections and clean them since any corrosion will cause the same thing.

Mike

[chadh]

Well this is the direction I am headed. I found one of the four of the brush wires broken and the other three had broken strands. Rebuild or buy new? 

[mikeexplorer]

Rebuild, you can get a brush kit from rick's motorsports. I had to do this on my 2007 400, if I remember right, it was like $35? (this was a few years ago)

 

https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInYrsxfCr6wIVNxatBh23-AgLEAAYAyAAEgJYk_D_BwE

 

[MarkinAR]

Always rebuild an OEM starter over putting a cheap chinese one on. 

[chadh]

New starter fixed the problem. 

[mikeexplorer]

Good to hear