Mech

Have you checked the aircleaner. Here in NZ we get high humidity and paper filters get moist and block up.. Probably not a problem there with ice I guess.

If the new cdi was making it run a bit retarded it would get hot..  Probably shouldn't make the plug black though.. not unless it was miles out of time..  If you have the old cdi still you could swap it back and try.

I'm not into racing and find fourstrokes more leisurely to ride..  Quieter, less critical about revs or gears.. and they go longer before they develop that annoying piston rattle..

Hi. If it's the diff or the front cv on the axles, it will probably be a muffled noise because of the oil and diff housing, or the grease and rubber boots. If it's a clear sharp noise I'd guess it's the front driveshaft universal from the engine to the front diff. The tone of the noise should give some indication which it is.

The driveshaft universals don't have the protection of rubber boots and are the ones to wear out most often too.. I'd suspect it's the driveshaft. The driveshaft universal is easy to get your hands on. Just reach in there and try rotating the shaft a little, or push and pull the shaft to the side of the bike and check for sidewards play, there should be none.

The universal is a bit of a bugger to do because you need to dismantle it in place, then put it together in place again as well.. unless you have a special dealer tool to undo the bolt to take the shaft away from the gearbox. The good news is that the universal joint is an excellent design and as far as universal joints go, it's almost foolproof.

Most uj you need to be very careful as you put the cups into the yoke  and onto the cross because it's really easy to dislodge a needle roller. On these crosses you can slip the cup into the yoke and onto the cross without having to press the cup far in, and then the other side cup goes in and onto the cross before it has a chance to drop a needle.. If you've done a car universal you will know the normal problem that requires you to press the cup a long way in till the cross is poking out the other side, then get the cup on the second side and press the whole lot back to the centre of the yoke. You don't have to do that with these ujs.  The hardest part is getting the circlips on and off. The cups also seem to slip most of the way into the yoke too before you have to start tapping or using a g-clamp on it.

They look daunting, but are a lot easier than it looks.. If you've done a uj before you should have no trouble.

Good thinking Dave.. could be wheels..

Hi there. I've not had any hands on experience with those things, but my son has a canam and I've looked in the manuals a bit. And I have had my hands on a Jacobson hauler which is similar.

I'd suspect that one of the clutches is getting sticky on the bushes in the center of the clutch hubs.. Which looks to be a pretty simple thing to look into. I'd whip the belt off again and see if the moving parts slide on their shafts.

No trouble, my pleasure.. 

Tell me, do we get those points on the leader board when someone likes our post do we ? I've been trying to figure out how I got up there.. 

(I hope that's a covid mask you're wearing, not a highwaymans.)

The gear engagement system is by the look of it pretty basic. They have chunky looking "dogs" that are able to slide on spines on the shafts, and the gears themselves spin freely on the shafts until you slid the dogs along, which meshes lugs on the dogs with lugs on the gears, locking the gears to the shafts. The dogs are moved by forked shift plates that are moved by the shift lever

For the lugs to engage, one of either the dogs, or the gears, need to be rotating slowly. Since you have been adjusting the throttle and idle speed, I'd check that is all as per the book. If the idle speed is too slow the clutches may not be rotating the gearbox slowly and gently as it probably should to allow the lugs to line up. Another way to get one of either the dogs or the gears to rotate is to rock the bike back and forwards as you try to engage gears.

If the idle speed is too fast, then the lugs on the dogs will start to slide between the lugs on the gears, but then get a load on the meshing faces and bind, hindering any further easy movement.

Lastly, it's perhaps possible(given there's water in there) that there's a bit of rust between the gears, or perhaps just one gear, where it's meant to freewheel on it's shaft, which will cause the gear and the shaft and the splined dog to all be rotating together, which could mean the lugs can't engage between one-other because they are all lined up with lug up against lug. If this is the case, rocking the bike as you try putting it into gear might make the difference, and once the gears are in gear and used the bit of rust might wear off and things may free up and come right.

I'd try getting it into gear by rocking the bike with the motor running, then try getting it into the other gears one after another by rocking, hopeing to free things up. If it works give it a short drive till it's warm and then change the oil.

Have you checked it's compression ?

Does it crank at the right speed, not to fast(low compression), or too slow(battery or starter).

Saw this club and thought I should log in. I'm a mechanic in New Zealand and have been mainly self employed in small rural communities for the last forever. I've worked on everything from heavy machinery and decent sized boat motors to tiny model airplane engines,

If there's anything I can help with let me know.

The quad forums here are great, particularly so due to the friendly atmosphere and lack of arguing or slagging off.. which seem to be the norm some places..  Good work guys.

Just thought to elaborate..  They won't start if the reverse light(if it has one) is on, or if the neutral light is not on..

They aren't meant to start in gear, so the problem is in the gear change adjustment or the neutral light switch, which I think will be on the engine/gearbox, or possibly on the change lever.  Does it have a reverse light, and does the reverse light come on when it's in reverse? If the reverse light isn't coming on in reverse then it's real likely the adjustment.

It won't be the starter motor.

Get a manual  off here or somewhere online, check the position of the shifter is adjusted right , then look for the neutral/reverse switch, which could be two separate switches. The switches on most bikes are easy to get at and out if need be if they are in the gearbox.

Into reverse or out of forward ? I'm presuming you must be driving in forward when the problem happens.

If it just sort of works it's way out of gear without any great force to start, then perhaps gets kicked out forcefully, then probably bad adjustment or the detent(a position holder) on the shifter might need work.

If it tries to jump out forcefully, and harder the more throttle/load you give it, then it's probably the gears need work inside the box.

Check the cable and lever positioning notches, and engine mounts... A manual will tell you haw to adjust the cable.

Not sure if this applies to your model Mark... 

EFI DIAGNOSTICS
Instrument Cluster Trouble Code Display
NOTE: The diagnostic mode is accessible only when the check engine MIL has been activated.
Use the following procedure to display diagnostic trouble codes that were activated during current ignition cycle
causing the MIL to illuminate. Diagnostic trouble codes will remain stored in the gauge (even if MIL turns off) until the
key is turned off.
NOTE: If there is a diagnostic problem with the power steering system, the power steering MIL will illuminate
and blink in place of the check engine MIL.
1. If the trouble code(s) are not displayed, use the MODE button to toggle until “CK ENG” displays on the information
display area.
2. Press and hold the MODE button to enter the diagnostics code menu.
3. A set of three numbers will appear in the information area.
• The first number (located far left) can range from 0 to 9. This number represents the total number of trouble code
present (example: 2 means there are 3 codes present).
• The second number (located top right) can be 2 to 6 digits in length. This number equates to the suspected area
of fault (SPN).
• The third number (located bottom right) can be 1 to 2 digits in length. This number equates to the fault mode
(FMI).
4. If more than one code exists, press the MODE button to advance to the next trouble code.
5. To exit the diagnostic mode, press and hold the MODE button or turn the ignition key OFF once the codes are
recorded.

Ha. No trouble Mark. My son just got a canam and is a bit bummed out he needs go see the dealer to have his throttle reset, which is a scam !  I might have to have a go at hacking that one day... it's a lot of work for only one bike though.

Are you sure there isn't some way of getting the trouble codes out by pressing buttons while you turn the key on, or something like that ? Sometimes holding the brakes on, and a button..  A lot of makes do allow that.

"Yeah, but mine was self inflicted. I did a back flip, which smacked it off the ground pretty hard. If I hadnt' been under there to cushion the blow it might have been really damaged bad. "..

Lol.. Nice save. A dedicated man.

Hi. Yes the ecu do store the diagnostic trouble codes at least, but I don't think that a stand alone obdii will be any use because they mostly only gather the mandated information relating to emission control systems, and from the mandated automotive ecu address.. Laptop obdii and general probing software, and a suitable connector cable, can connect and gather information; they use the same communication protocols. The problem is that you need to know which wire to query, and then where in the ecu table of addresses the  information you want is, and the manufacturers don't want you to have that information. There are ways to trial and error and find what you want out of an ecu but it's time consuming. It's also possible to find the addresses you want by using the manufacturers licensed software(if you can borrow a setup), and monitoring the communication going in and out of your laptop, and finding the addresses it's questioning, and the answers returned. This though all requires a good understanding of what it is you are looking for, and then when you have the raw data, it needs some processing to turn the binary information into meaningful figures. It(the raw data) always has to be either multiplied or divided and/or have some sort of adjustment figure applied to it.

I think really that the short answer is... no.

Those are good suggestions Sam, especially using the snatch block to redirect the pull, people don't think of that sometimes and think their only option is one of two trees, neither of which is in the direction they want to go.

Good thanks for the reply.. I'm on a slow internet connection here and have trouble sending files..  If I could I would add manuals.. sorry. Thought I should ask about the policy. Some forums don't like links.. security or something I guess.

The combustion difference between a conventional ignition coil operation and a cdi ignition coil operation is this..

In the conventional system the 12v power goes through the coil and then to a set of points or an electronic switch which allows the power to flow to earth. That flow through the primary windings of the coil slowly(relatively slow), builds up a magnetic field which saturates the secondary windings. When we want spark we cut off the flow by opening the points or electronic switch and the magnetic field collapses quickly(relatively quickly), which induces the high voltage to fire the sparkplug. The spark is caused by the collapsing magnetic field

In the cdi system we discharge the capacitor at high voltage and high current and it induces the spark as the rapidly rising magnetic field is propagated outward through the secondary windings. The spark is caused by the expanding field.

In the conventional system, as the collapsing magnetic field induces the high voltage in the secondary windings, it also induces another lower voltage in the primary windings, and that low voltage is in the opposite direction to the initial voltage. We call this an "counter electro magnetic force", or cemf, and it has the effect of opposing the initial induced voltage in the secondary windings as well. The overall effect of this initial emf, and then the cemf, is to set up a fluctuating high voltage spark, which, if we look at it on an oscilloscope goes high, then a little lower, then up, then lower still, then up, then lower still, It typically fluctuates about six times, each times with a lower voltage, until it dies right out. So a conventional system can give initial ignition, but then as the flame propagates and causes a high pressure, the fluctuating voltage spark can get cut off by the increased pressure and fail to ignite any unburnt fuel  that would benefit from a long lasting spark. That can cause misfires or incomplete combustion.

The cdi spark is one long fat hot spark which doesn't suffer from the cemf as much and so gives good secondary ignition and less misfiring or incomplete combustion.

Ok, my two cents worth..

First off there is a difference between a cdi and an ecu/ecm. To avoid confusion for anyone looking in a manual it's important to know that some engine control module/units have a cdi system built into them and some don't.  Cdi are purely for firing the spark plug and can be built into an ecu or they can be external, and also, cdi can be fitted to engines that don't have an ecu. An ecu generally only come on fuel injected engines these days and they monitor the throttle position, the engine temp, air temp and revs, and they control the fuel injection, the ignition firing and ignition advance.

There are two different sorts of cdi. There are twelve volt cdi that run off the battery, and there are cdi that run off the crankshaft generator.

The first sort, the twelve volt ones, use battery power which they first run through an electronic circuit which turns it into an alternating current which goes through a small transformer and gets stepped up to approximately 350 volts. That high voltage gets stored in a capacitor and is then discharged through a specially designed ignition coil made to handle the very high voltage and high current which the discharging capacitor supplies. The discharge is controlled by either an ecu which has a crank position sensor, or it's controlled by a trigger coil or hall effect sensor on the crank. If it's controlled by an ecu, the ecu does a calculation of what the ignition advance should be based on revs, temp and throttle position. If it's controlled by a trigger on the crank the timing is advanced by virtue of the fact that at higher revs the magnet(or hall effect disruptor), has more effect as it's speed increases. At low revs the magnet has to get quite close to the sensor before it produces enough induced power to trigger the cdi, but as revs increase the rapidly moving magnet induces more effect and so triggers the cdi at a greater distance before the trigger, hence an advanced firing point for the cdi/ignition.

In the other sort, the crank mounted generator type, they use the alternating current out of the generator and they put it through a circuit comprised of diodes and small capacitors which "doubles" the voltage. They call it a doubler or stacker but it doesn't actually quite double, but  the voltage rises by about 1.73 times. In a twelve volt flywheel generator which has a loaded alternating voltage of about 28 volts, and up to 120 when it's open circuit, that gives about 120 effective volts. The 120 volts is then stored in a capacitor and is discharged when it's triggered by either an ecu or a trigger on the crank, and in either case the ignition advance is controlled in the same way as in the first version.

In both cases the cdi discharges through an ignition coil which is itself a stepup transformer that produces a spark of thousands of volts, 25,000 to 40,000 volts being common

The two advantages of a cdi are that it produces a hotter fatter spark, which can't be extinguished when the compression pressures go up during flame propagation, and they can fire the ignition coil at a higher frequency which allows for higher revs. Cdi systems must have a special ignition coil which can handle the high current and voltage.

I was just reading through the threads and saw a good thought for this problem...  Check the key between the crank and flywheel..  That would definitely do it.. 

And as for the original problem of frying three sets of ignition coils and cdi units..  Cdi systems have to have a special sort of ignition coil made for a high current. If you put an after market coil on there that's not made for the cdi that would blow, and probably wreck the cdi unit.

Other than that, a bad earth somewhere, could be between the stator and the crankcase(unlikely unless it's a broken wire inside there), or the engine might not be properly earthed(also unlikely if the starter works), or the coil, or the cdi unit might not be earthed. ..

Hope I'm not being a nuisance here booting all these old threads Ajmboy.. but I see there have been a lot of people looking. I presume someone will have the same problems.

Hope it's not breaking the rules posting links too.. let me know if I am. I'd contribute manuals directly but my internet is slow..

This works.

Oh ok...  I'll look in from time to time.

Had any luck with this ?

Ninety is low for one of those. It could be burnt valves or bad rings. The way to tell which it is, is to put a little oil down the spark plug hole, give it a quick spin to distribute the oil then do a compression test. Oil will seal the bad rings up quite a lot, but have bugger all effect if it's the valves. If it's the rings the compression should come up to perhaps 110 or more, if it's valves probably only 95.. It depends how bad the rings or valves are..  You could also look at the exhaust for sign of oil burning which would indicate the rings.

I suppose you have changed the fuel ? Stale fuel can make for no start by fouling the plugs even though they don't look fouled, they will even spark when they are out, but not once the compression comes on. And, once stale fuel has fouled the plugs, they seldom come right unfortunatly. You could try holding them over a butane flame and try to burn them clean which sometimes works, but often not.

If it's been sitting I'd do that and try to get it going, the compression might come better with a run.. perhaps.. by a little.. but it's not really sounding too hopeful. It's always a good idea though to try and give things a run before you strip them down so you can check the gears and crank for noises etc.. It would be a shame to rebuild the top end and then find the bottom end was shagged.. and since someone has been modifying the inlet, we'd have to suspect it's been thrashed..