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Posted

Hi all - I recently had a shop fix this quad and it hasn't been right since. The jug was resealed as it was leaking, the rings were replaced, and the valve stem seals replaced. Shop said the cylinder walls were great so nothing was done there. The motor still smokes, heavily on startup and all but quits once warmed up. Enough that I can live with it if I can fix what I came to ask about. I mentioned this work because since I've gotten it back it seems like it has power but tops out at a much slower speed than before. It's old so I don't have a speedo but I pulled out my phone at it tops out at 25 mph. I know before the work, I was getting up to 45+ mph... It's so bad, my 10 year old daughter is pulling away and straight leaving me in the dust with her governed Polaris 90.

Given the work done, what are some thing I could be the cause of such a drastic difference? I immediately thought timing but the marks appear to match up with a youtube video I found... no idea if it's correct though. It sat in another shop for 2 months and they gave me an $800 quote just for the starter... it pull starts fine. 

FYI: I would take it back to the original shop to figure out but I had some issues that make them a no-go for me. 

Posted
11 hours ago, Mech said:

Valve timing is the obvious given it's just had work done there.. badly adjusted valves but you'd surely hear them... blocked exhaust.

When the valves were out of adjustment years ago, it was really hard to start when cold. I'm not currently experiencing that. The motor and exhaust sound normal to me... but I may not be the best judge. Wouldn't the motor likely be difficult to start if the values were out of adjustment again?

Posted

Afterthought..  Hopeless bloody mechanics didn't leave the throttle with too much play did they ? It is getting full throttle ?

You can check that by giving it full throttle, (engine off of course), and then pulling the cable outer, out, up at the hand piece.. If it comes out then the inner isn't pulling the throttle right open to it's stop.

Posted

I hate to hear what a shop charged you for all that.

I would check the throttle cable and throttle plate , make sure its opening all the way and that the rev limiter is not stopping anything. I would think a professional shop would have rebuilt it right , rings in the right way and gaps staggered, etc. Since you just spent all that money i would at least call them and tell them what its doing and that you are not happy, see what they say.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Sorry for having to drop this project for a bit, company just had layoffs and I was finally the lucky sucker. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try to address some of them:

On 1/27/2025 at 3:17 PM, Mech said:

Hopeless bloody mechanics didn't leave the throttle with too much play did they ? It is getting full throttle ?

I checked to be sure but the throttle adjustment is pretty well dead on. It's opening to full throttle with no restriction on the cable. The motor sounds normal, like its fully rev-ing out, it just tops out at 25mph as opposed to the 45+mph. That's by ear though, be nice to have a tach to have exact numbers.

On 1/28/2025 at 2:42 PM, Gwbarm said:

I hate to hear what a shop charged you for all that.

...make sure its opening all the way and that the rev limiter is not stopping anything. I would think a professional shop would have rebuilt it right , rings in the right way and gaps staggered, etc. Since you just spent all that money i would at least call them and tell them what its doing and that you are not happy, see what they say.

It was well over a grand.... wouldn't have been terrible if it was working right. There's no rev limiter installed on the throttle. Like I said, I feel like it's rev-ing out. I already called the shop and they pointed to an exhaust leak. Long story semi-short, he cut one of the sides off the muffler mount... I'm assuming so he could swing the exhaust out of the way without fully removing it. The cut mount has a nice shiny silver line down it so it was 100% done while it was there. I didn't realize this was done and by running it and bouncing around with the muffler flopping, it caused the header pipe to crack. I reconnected the reverse assist button that was disconnected when I got it back. I also found a TON of missing screws... I know it happens, but I managed to not loose more than 1 or 2 over 20 years. That's just sloppy, lazy work. 

On 1/28/2025 at 10:44 PM, Mech said:

I'm picking a "burnt oil" filled exhaust... 

100% burnt oil... a lot of soot in the pipe but no restrictions. Any good way to clean it out?

Posted (edited)

I'd just take it off at the head and go for a blast.. haha I can because I'm rural. That would be the best test to see if it is restricted. Well.. there is a slightly more professional way, and that's to fit a vacuum gauge to the inlet and watch it... if there's somewhere to tap into full manifold vacuum..

And yes there are ways to clean them but they are rather destructive. You can soak the whole thing in caustic solution for a few hours and then rinse it and bash it with a piece of wood and hose it out a lot and hopefully a lot of soft carbon falls out.. if you're lucky. If not lucky it might block a mufler worse than ever. It works on the simple exhausts of old two-strokes.

The other way is to heat the pipe end with oxy-acetylene torch and when a few bits of carbon start glowing, turn off the acetylene.. It's turn into a jet engine and a red hot band works it's way along the pipe and then muffler.. It makes a huge noise and flames and clouds of smoke.. It's my preferred method.. Both "cures" rust out the pipe pretty quickly.

If you can go for a long hot ride, like four hours or more of steady riding, preferably in hills or sand-hills so it's working hard, and it might come clean.

Edited by Mech
Posted
22 hours ago, Mech said:

Oxy-acetylene torch and when a few bits of carbon start glowing, turn off the acetylene.. It's turn into a jet engine and a red hot band works it's way along the pipe and then muffler.. It makes a huge noise and flames and clouds of smoke.. It's my preferred method.. Both "cures" rust out the pipe pretty quickly.

If you can go for a long hot ride, like four hours or more of steady riding, preferably in hills or sand-hills so it's working hard, and it might come clean.

Oxy-acetylene is an option for me. I'm assuming I'd need block one of the pipes on the manifold/header so you don't catch a back flame. It's an almost 30 year old pipe so the metals already pretty thin.

I don't have the service manual so I have questions about the timing, it might be easier to show in pictures. I've read that at TDC (or the T visible in the peep hole) the timing mark on the cam should be level with the top of the front of the head (pointing to the exhaust ports). Mine is level with the back of the head (pointing to the muffler). At the 2nd TDC (T mark) the timing mark is 30-45 degrees above the head facing the exhaust ports. Can you confirm my timing marks are correct?

Posted (edited)

The book I looked in said T in the peep hole, and then, the mark on the camshaft lined up with a mark on the sprocket,(the cam mark is on the back of the sprocket), then the sprocket lined up with the head surface.

There shouldn't be any second T mark. There will be a F mark. 

If you turn the crank one whole rotation from one T to the next time it appears in the hole, the cam's marks should have done a half turn and gone from front of the head to the back, or from the back to the front. You need to be sure all the slack is out of the tight side of the chain  when you are checking the alignment, and it will be possible to get the cam marks less than a half tooth from perfect. If it looks like it wants to be more than half a cam tooth off, yell out and I'll explain how to fix that.

The oxy-acet will be the death of the old muffler..  Just unbolt it and go for one fang.. They you'll know it's the exhaust blocked and not a bad spark-plug..

Edited by Mech
Posted
13 hours ago, Mech said:

The book I looked in said T in the peep hole, and then, the mark on the camshaft lined up with a mark on the sprocket,(the cam mark is on the back of the sprocket), then the sprocket lined up with the head surface.

There shouldn't be any second T mark. There will be a F mark. 

If you turn the crank one whole rotation from one T to the next time it appears in the hole, the cam's marks should have done a half turn and gone from front of the head to the back, or from the back to the front. You need to be sure all the slack is out of the tight side of the chain  when you are checking the alignment, and it will be possible to get the cam marks less than a half tooth from perfect. If it looks like it wants to be more than half a cam tooth off, yell out and I'll explain how to fix that.

The oxy-acet will be the death of the old muffler..  Just unbolt it and go for one fang.. They you'll know it's the exhaust blocked and not a bad spark-plug..

Sorry I wasn't clear, the 2nd crank rotation is what I meant by the "2nd T". Does the book say the sprocket should be lined with the forward or aft facing head surface?  

Posted

Ok, I must have been exhausted when I checked the timing a week or so ago. On the first rotation at the t mark, the cam sprocket mark is dead level with the forward side of the head. The second rotation at the t mark, the cam sprocket is maybe a half tooth off level with the aft head surface. That should be acceptable according to what I've read and the book you've referenced. I was really hoping timing was the issue here. I hope it's not an impossible to find clutch.

Anything else to check while the cam/valve cover is off? Of course I'll need it on to check valve adjustments.

Thanks for all the help!

Posted

The cam timing should come out the same no matter how many turns of the crank you make. If it lines up on one T, it should be the exact same on the next rotation. Make sure you are rotating the crank the right way. Turn it some more rotations and check the timing doesn't slowly creep around.. Caused by a wrong/worn sprocket.

It doesn't matter whether the cam's mark is at the front or back of the head.

Posted

I'm not sure what I did when I checked last but it was obviously wrong hope I did it.

The sprocket mark is dead level the first rotation (forward ) and about a half tooth off on the second rotation (aft). It's consistent over a dozen or so rotations; I'm not noticing any variation. I'm turning it using the pull cord so it better be turning the correct direction. 🙃

I'm going to bottom this back up and check valve adjustment next.

Posted

Is there any way to check your max RPM when you're going full speed?  Does the engine itself audibly sound like it's going as fast as it used to, or it's not getting up there in hi gear, no power?

Shudder the thought, the transfer case is not in Low gear is it (lol!)..........:o)

I'm sure they have the service manual here on Quadcrazy, well worth the download. 

Not sure if it's a similar machine, but regarding your (EXPENSIVE) starter motor quote, check out my starter motor video for my own '86 Bayou 300, family owned since new.  Brand new starter on the 'bay is $100, and change it out in 15 minutes, no oil draining or side cover gasket removal required.

Finally, yes check your valves, I've left mine go for a few years at times, and sometimes after adjusting them WOW it takes off!  Once it went from bogging in the snow in 2nd gear to accelerating in 3rd gear, clearance closed up.  Though the shop SHOULD have done that!.....:o)  Cut exhaust mount and missing screws for $1000, 'Sloppy' isn't the word I'd use.........

Bellarmine

Posted
6 hours ago, bellarmine said:

Is there any way to check your max RPM when you're going full speed?  Does the engine itself audibly sound like it's going as fast as it used to, or it's not getting up there in hi gear, no power?

I wish I had a tach and speedo but it's a '97, I think there was a speedo option. Audibly it sounds perfectly normal, exactly like it was going as fast as it used to. I wouldn't say it has no power as I can still pull my trailers and stuff, it'll pull hard but it's topping out like it's in low gear, actually a little higher but not what it should be.

6 hours ago, bellarmine said:

Shudder the thought, the transfer case is not in Low gear is it (lol!)..........:o)

100% not in low gear! I checked it multiple times to make sure. 🙃

6 hours ago, bellarmine said:

I'm sure they have the service manual here on Quadcrazy, well worth the download. 

It's available once you hit 10 posts. I just wasn't going to spam b.s. to hit the 10 post mark. Looks like I have one more post after this one.

6 hours ago, bellarmine said:

Not sure if it's a similar machine, but regarding your (EXPENSIVE) starter motor quote, check out my starter motor video for my own '86 Bayou 300, family owned since new.  Brand new starter on the 'bay is $100, and change it out in 15 minutes, no oil draining or side cover gasket removal required.

I'll check it out. The starter spins no problem but about 50% of the time it doesn't turn over the motor, and when it does it's for a short burst before it just spins. If it was a car, it'd be an issue with the bendix gear not engaging the flywheel. Looking into this model, it's likely the start gear clutch... which requires a tear down of the left side of the motor where the starter and pull start chain is. But I may be wrong.

6 hours ago, bellarmine said:

check your valves, I've left mine go for a few years at times, and sometimes after adjusting them WOW it takes off!  Once it went from bogging in the snow in 2nd gear to accelerating in 3rd gear, clearance closed up.  Though the shop SHOULD have done that!.....:o)  Cut exhaust mount and missing screws for $1000, 'Sloppy' isn't the word I'd use.........

I got the motor buttoned up and checked the valves. Exhaust was dead on .23 and intake dead on .18 which are the middle marks in the acceptable range. I started it up and its still easy to start with the pull rope so I'll say the valves are set correctly. The open head and straight pipe exhaust note sounds clean, no struggling.

I got a lot of 4 letter words about the quality of work done, mostly f-bombs, but I'm new and don't know the audience.

I did find the rear vent hose thing that attaches to the clutch/belt cover was completely disconnected. A large amount of dust likely made it's way in and if really unlucky, a mouse could have made a nest. I'm sure I'd smell the belt if it was slipping but I think I'll be pulling the belt cover next and inspect that. as well.

Posted

All good points Bellarmine.

As far as that cam mark changing goes.. There's something wrong there, worn sprocket/s, tight link in the chain that doesn't like going around corners, play in the cam bearings perhaps..

If you start it, listen for a rhythmic surge/rattle noise from the tensioner/chain.

And, another thing that can cause really dull performance and no revs, is retarded ignition timing.. Usually accompanied with a lot of heat.. It makes exhausts glow red..

Oh heck.. I hadn't realised it was a belt drive..  That might not be operating properly.. 

Posted

Glad my post was slightly helpful, glad to help, and thanks for the good words Mech.

I didn't know you had a belt in there, assumed it was similar to my Bayou 300 shaft drive (yes I assumed, bad idea!...:o)  Yes it could very well be your belt, worn out, dirty from your missing hose, slipping, maybe the primary and driven pulley sheaves halves not moving or sticking with engine speed.  Because before I knew you had a belt, I was going to suggest checking the clutch adjustment, as on my Bayou 300 if I use the wrong oil, dirty oil, or clutch out of adjustment, the engine will slip in top 5th gear when I'm going full speed, and almost sound like revving in neutral until I back off the throttle a little.  Like you no problem in 1st gear, I believe roaring down the road in 5th gear is almost harder on the clutch than pulling 600lbs in 1st.

Doesn't sound to me like timing is an issue, if as you say the engine revs up normally and tops out, sounds more like a slipping clutch / belt issue. If you had shaft drive I could give you some tips on the clutches, but I know very little about ATV belts..:o)

Finally, about your starter, from what you say I think you have figured out your problem.  I also had the same problem with my Bayou, starter would engage then skip and grind and not turn over the engine.  Yes, drain the oil (or tilt it up 45 degrees on a block), take off the cover and pull the flywheel.  Was not too bad, done lots of outboards before, though I did have to buy a special Kawasaki type flywheel puller bolt on eBay for $30 (not sure if you'd need it).  It's called a sprag clutch, spins one way but grips the other.  Turns out I didn't even replace the clutch, was still like new, just the tiny circular spring that went around the whole mess had stretched over the years and wasn't making the sprags grip properly.  Just changed the spring and been good ever since.

Here is a exploded view for your ATV, I just love to pour over these so I can figure out what goes on inside a machine, might as well figure what's in there before you take it apart lol:

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/kawasaki/atv/1997/prairie-400-4x4-kvf400-a1/starter-motor

You need the One Way clutch, 13194-1094.  This is what you need:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/196386773534

Or this, cheaper from China just use the spring:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/395916084250

Reply to this post and you can get your manual.....:o)

Bellarmine

Posted
1 hour ago, bellarmine said:

Reply to this post and you can get your manual.....:o)

Now I'm golden. :)

I'll probably fix the starter issues once I get my other issues fixed. It pull starts super easy and once it's been pull started it only takes a quick starter bump to start. I honestly never considered it an issue, just a little quirk. I will need to get the flywheel puller. I've really loved this prairie but once I get it square away, it may be time to find something newer. :( ...or older, my '85 Honda Fourtrax 250 is a solid beast... just wish it was 4wd.

I guess it's easy enough to find and replace the belt but if it's the clutches, I'm pretty well screwed. All I've found are used in unknown/questionable condition. I just find it strange to suddenly have a possible belt issue. It was never an issue prior. I guess it is 28 years old and never been changed. 

Posted

Did you drive it with the pipe off ?

Are you sure all the carb and tank vent hoses are connected right, and have you tried opening the air inlet to the carb ? Taking the lid off the air-filter box perhaps..

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mech said:

Did you drive it with the pipe off ?

Are you sure all the carb and tank vent hoses are connected right, and have you tried opening the air inlet to the carb ? Taking the lid off the air-filter box perhaps..

I wanted to but I'm in town so I'd have had the local PD on me in no time. I ran it idle for a bit and rev-ed it, also held a high rpm. I only have 2 tank connections, petcock and vent in the cap. Hard to screw that one up. Now that I have the service manual I'll run down the carb connections. Test riding the quad will have to wait until I get it to my property. 

I attached a clip running with no exhaust attached. It sounds fine to me but I'm no expert. Ignore the horribly brazed muffler inlet crack, I don't have the oxy-acet here and went for it with MAPP... 😑

Edited by PIYIRIO
Posted

I see.. Ok well there's another check for blocked exhaust, well there are two symptoms we can look for actually.. apart from going for a drive with the pipe off.. If the exhaust's blocked and you have the airbox off you'll notice that at the revs start to flatten out because of the back pressure, the carb will start to puff fuel and air back out. I'll start sort of abruptly when the power starts dropping. Some carbs spit backwards a little anyway, so you need to use a bit of discretion, but the fact it starts spitting back more as the revs build, rather than the more common , spitting a little at low revs then doing it less as the revs build, that's the clue.  The other test is to fit a vacuum gauge, and it will start at idle with moderate vacuum, then the vacuum builds as the revs build a little, but then the vacuum starts to drop abruptly when the blocked exhaust starts to do it's thing..

 

And I figured why the cam timing came out different after a turn.. It's because the first setting should have been a quarter tooth off one way, then after one turn the mark should have been a quarter tooth out in the other direction.. So the first check might have had the mark just below the head surface, and then the next check should have shown it just above the head surface..  Instead you had it spot on at first and then all the discrepancy showing after a rotation..  It'll be close enough though not to be the trouble with the no revs problem.

Posted
On 2/10/2025 at 1:24 PM, Mech said:

I see.. Ok well there's another check for blocked exhaust, well there are two symptoms we can look for actually.. apart from going for a drive with the pipe off.. If the exhaust's blocked and you have the airbox off you'll notice that at the revs start to flatten out because of the back pressure, the carb will start to puff fuel and air back out. I'll start sort of abruptly when the power starts dropping. Some carbs spit backwards a little anyway, so you need to use a bit of discretion, but the fact it starts spitting back more as the revs build, rather than the more common , spitting a little at low revs then doing it less as the revs build, that's the clue.  The other test is to fit a vacuum gauge, and it will start at idle with moderate vacuum, then the vacuum builds as the revs build a little, but then the vacuum starts to drop abruptly when the blocked exhaust starts to do it's thing..

Should the quad be under load (in gear) to see any potential puffs out the carb?

Posted

Carbs puff a little fuel out the carb sometimes anyway during normal revving up from low revs, but if the exhaust's really blocked so you can notice it (the blockage) stationary, then I'd expect the carb to start puffing more fuel and air than it should at high revs.. But it'll be a comparative sort of thing.. You'll notice it mainly because of it's abrupt occurrence. Most blocked exhausts don't show up so readily though stationary, because you need to rev them high and for a few seconds to get the back-pressure to build up, and most people are hesitant to keep the revs that high with no load on the engine. People are much happier to rev things right out when the engine's under some load.. I ride bikes to try and detect blocked exhausts. taking the exhaust off and revving it in the workshop doesn't really reveal/prove anything.

If you can adapt a vacuum gauge into a steady vacuum point on the carb or inlet it will show it up better stationary.

Posted

Great explanation Mech. Dont see that happen very often in ATV, see it a lot in Briggs, when you shut it off sounds like a gun shot out the exhaust within a couple of seconds, i always thought it was just a leaky needle and seat letting gas into a hot cylinder and igniting because it would always stop after i went through the carb and replaced all the seals.

Posted

I think that comment is for the "need help" thread Gw..  You're like me and get lost in here..  haha.. I'm forever forgetting which bike is which and which problem is which.. i waste an awful lot of time going back to page one to check I'm thinking of the right bike and problem, and then sometimes things have moved on and it's a new problem we are discussing, and I tilli get it wrong !

And yeah, a rich mixture can do it too.. And more often in the exhaust.

Lean mixtures always seem to whoomph out the inlet though.. 

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