Another one back from the dead (1997 King Quad 300 LT-FWDX)

[Hagbard]

Welp. I finally bit the bullet and ordered that 250s camshaft. And a case splitter, valve spring compressor, a valve guide reamer, some valves, gasket kit…. Looks like I have my winter project dance card entirely full this year. Going to start disassembly Sunday afternoon and see if I need any last minute additions.

If the seats are so boned that they need cutting, I found a couple shops locally that I’m told do good work. One is an old school mainly Harley shop called Go-Slo Engineering   We’ll see if they’ll touch a Japanese head ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

[JustRandy]

Holy cow did you win the lotto? lol

If you put in a new valve you have to cut the seat because it won't be at the same angle as the new valve.  That's the mistake I made over n over before buying the cutter.

[Hagbard]

They *slightly* reduced the price. I came to terms with the fact my top end needs rebuilt and I don’t want to half as* it. 

[JustRandy]

How much did they reduce the price?  I need to get a spare 250 cam too just in case I forget to put oil in again lol

[Hagbard]

16 minutes ago, JustRandy said:

How much did they reduce the price?  I need to get a spare 250 cam too just in case I forget to put oil in again lol

Not enough. But I didn’t want to miss out entirely. I’d love to find an old cam grinder and duplicate these things. 

[JustRandy]

44 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Not enough. But I didn’t want to miss out entirely. I’d love to find an old cam grinder and duplicate these things. 

I'm not sure there would be much of a market for 250 cams which is why I want to get one before they're gone for good.  I don't know why I didn't buy more when they were $100 a decade ago.

Which seller did you buy from?  I'm sure that's the lowest price considering your propensity for research.  I just buy one and check it off my to-do list.

Also need to find a spare head.  If you happen to run across any let me know.

[Hagbard]

 

only one out there, straight from Japan. 

[JustRandy]

Thanks man.  I bought 2.  There are 3 left.  On second thought maybe you could make money duplicating those cams lol

Shipping will take a month so hope I don't forget I bought them.

I got a little bit of a deal because paypal gave me $25 for buying bitcoin, so I used the $25 for the cams which reduced the price to $260 with shipping and taxes.  $130 a cam ain't bad with shipping and the Trump tax included (he appointed the guy who broke the tie to give us internet sales taxes so I call it the Trump tax).

[Hagbard]

Would be interesting to see how it compares to that Chinese one I asked for specs on. They answered me back with a measurement that was meaningless.

Gave me total lift in mm so without knowing base circle diameter. But I suppose I can measure this one the same way for some sort of comparison. 
 

[JustRandy]

Well at least they put a lot of effort into the meaningless answer which is more than I usually get.

For what it's worth, the same measurement on my old 250 cam is 1.307, but that's the one I ran out of oil.

Base circle is 1.108

The other lobe that doesn't seem so worn is 1.326.

33.68 = 1.326

But I wouldn't get too excited since the A cam is also 1.326.  I think that cam is for the 250 4x4.

The D (300 4x4) and E (230S) are less.

 

[JustRandy]

The metal looks atrocious on that  https://www.ebay.com/itm/393528109834?hash=item5ba01a6b0a:g:2xUAAOSwQtFhJAYA

And it doesn't have the lines to set the valve timing.

[JustRandy]

The uploader rotated my pics.

Anyway,

250S vs 230S:

250S vs 250 4x4:

230S vs 300 4x4:

Keep in mind my 250S cam is worn.

[Hagbard]

A little arts and crafts project from screenshots of the service manual:

[JustRandy]

Looks like I wore 0.020 off my lobes.  Dang.  Probably same amount off the rockers.

So the 250 has a bigger intake valve, more intake duration, and same intake lift.  Exhaust has more lift.

Seems to me if even more lift added anything then Suzuki would have done it.  That's what Vince said too.

Yet every aftermarket cam has more lift.

[Hagbard]

I don't want to jinx it, but I'm talking to a guy in my town about trading the CRF80F and that RM80 roller for an 89 250S. Going over with the bikes tomorrow to see if he wants to trade.

[JustRandy]

24 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

I don't want to jinx it, but I'm talking to a guy in my town about trading the CRF80F and that RM80 roller for an 89 250S. Going over with the bikes tomorrow to see if he wants to trade.

Oh man, now that's cool.

[Hagbard]

18 hours ago, JustRandy said:

Oh man, now that's cool.

Got it!

I’ll post pics in a minute or twoI’ll post pics in a minute or two

[Hagbard]

 

[Hagbard]

Just realizing I saw this on FB this summer for like $900 and missed it by a day. Guy said it needed a little work and was missing a stator cover, but had spark.  Whoever Came with a DG exhaust and a new ebay carb along with a few other odds and ends in a box. Just pulled off the harness, CDI, regulator, and coil to clean them up and shore up the connections. Looks like it needs front brake pads, and a new back brake reservoir. Something's a little sloppy in the steering, either stem bushing or tie rod ends, haven't really investigated. Rolls nice, and suspension feels OK.  Tires are ALL clapped out, but I've got extras around. The "ears" of the seat have been chopped off, but I found a guy with one on FB for $25 that's ratty but solid pan and foam.  I'm trying to negotiate getting him to ship it to me from CT.

 

[JustRandy]

Aw man that looks in great condition!  The first pic makes it look like a quadracer.

I was wondering what's up with the seat.  The loose steering might be a stem bushing.  I remember something about that.  The shocks are really good for stock.

So someone bought it for $900 then traded it to you?

[Hagbard]

9 minutes ago, JustRandy said:

Aw man that looks in great condition!  The first pic makes it look like a quadracer.

I was wondering what's up with the seat.  The loose steering might be a stem bushing.  I remember something about that.  The shocks are really good for stock.

So someone bought it for $900 then traded it to you?

I think he traded it for something to the guy who bought it and put a stator cover on it. The plastics are pretty fu**** up, but I think I can make do with what’s there. Strip and paint like the KQ. 
I redid the steering stem bushing in the LT 80, I’m pretty sure this one is about the same. The guy in Connecticut just messaged me back, said he would ship me the seat, but I have to mail him a postal money order and the shipping label because he doesn’t have a printer or PayPal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[JustRandy]

A guy in Wisconsin demanded I send a postal money order before he'd ship a 250S engine to me.

The plastics on the 250S are brittle.  They changed something in the recipe.  One wipeout and all your hard work will disintegrate into a 1000 pieces.  Probably why that other guy who wanted $1500 had his plastics chopped.

[Hagbard]

The other bonus is he lives about 10 minutes away and has access from his neighborhood to a bunch of powerlines and sandy pine forest trails that I used to rip around on as a kid. Said I could park at his place if I wanted to go out there.

[JustRandy]

Can't beat that!

[Hagbard]

So, I had this weird thing happen where I would confirm getting spark using both a spare plug in the boot, and the plug in the engine, when unscrewed. Smelled and felt the plug was wet with gas. Check spark again, nothing. Tore the harness apart looking for fuckery, found a little, but nothing to account for this intermittent no-spark condition. Started thinking "What would cause spark then no-spark, seemingly at random?" and it occurred to me that contaminants in the oil (water?) might be sitting peacefully in the bottom of the oil until they get stirred up by a few cranks. Decided to pull the shiny new stator cover that someone apparently went to a lot of trouble to install. After being annoyed by the mismatched hardware making me run to the bench three times for different sockets, I got the cover off and was immediately greeted by milky-gray looking oil. Not great, but I felt vindicated in my hunch, however impossible it may have seemed, this stuff was ready to turn to mayo if it actually did run.  As I was letting it drain into the catch pan, I noticed something amiss inside the shiny new stator cover - a small stray screw.

Was one of the ones that held the pickup coil in place, which was just kinda dangling there, with the other screw also backing out of its threads.

 

Screwed that all back together and snug and noticed ANOTHER screw loose, this one on one of the main coils of the stator, backed way out and bent over at a 30 degree angle. Pulled it out and got it straightened in the vise, started screwing it back in, and then noticed an entire third of the stator plate that contained one of the mounting holes was broken off and missing entirely. The remaining two holes had buggered phillips screws in them, and also not tight at all. This was the rough equivalent of that zip-tied stator in the RV125. Absolute fukn trainwreck.  Luckily I have that 230S motor that's all JB weld, and it's that same stator. Going to swap those out in the morning.

The DG cleaned up really nice, and I repacked it, put it all back together and went to see how it fit, and it doesn't. Not at all. I think it's for a Honda or something, it's got a weird downturn/hook to it.  So I plan to steal the exhaust off the 230 as well since it's going on the bench for rebuild soon anyway. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Hagbard

[JustRandy]

Oh jeez man.  Someone should introduce that guy to locktite.  Well at least you caught it before something worse happened.

I was kinda waiting until you actually experienced problems before telling you this but since you have it apart I may as well tell you those coils of wire should be replaced.  After 30-40 years the enamel on the wire cracks causing shorts and the problem manifests as hard starting when hot.  You'd really be chasing you tail and scratching your head trying to figure out why it starts fine when cold but won't start at all when hot.  At the very minimum you should at least check the resistance and compare it to the service manual, but even that wouldn't give me a lot of confidence.  They don't cost much so I'd just replace them.

Another thing I noticed is the 230 flywheel has more spark advance than the 250, so I put the 230 flywheel on my 250.  No clue why they retarded the timing on the 250.  If you have both flywheels then check it out and see if you notice the same thing.

 

[Hagbard]

2 hours ago, JustRandy said:

Oh jeez man.  Someone should introduce that guy to locktite.  Well at least you caught it before something worse happened.

I was kinda waiting until you actually experienced problems before telling you this but since you have it apart I may as well tell you those coils of wire should be replaced.  After 30-40 years the enamel on the wire cracks causing shorts and the problem manifests as hard starting when hot.  You'd really be chasing you tail and scratching your head trying to figure out why it starts fine when cold but won't start at all when hot.  At the very minimum you should at least check the resistance and compare it to the service manual, but even that wouldn't give me a lot of confidence.  They don't cost much so I'd just replace them.

Another thing I noticed is the 230 flywheel has more spark advance than the 250, so I put the 230 flywheel on my 250.  No clue why they retarded the timing on the 250.  If you have both flywheels then check it out and see if you notice the same thing.

 

Out of curiosity, and not being able to find any replacements new for the 230/250S, what are the chances a 250R stator would work? It appears to be the same mounting plate, but has 3 coils instead of 2.  Otherwise, I suppose I could repot the coils in some epoxy resin. I'm heading to the hardware store to get a third mounting screw for the stator, and going to put it back together for now. 

[JustRandy]

I don't know anything about a 250R.  What exactly is it you need?  I have a 250S engine sitting in the woods rotting right now.

And I have this pile of junk (Uploader rotating my pics again)

[Hagbard]

What's broken is the backer plate that the two large coils and the pickup attach to, which itself bolts to the stator cover.  I replaced the stator with the one out of the 230S for now.  How do you determine what the timing advance/retardation is by looking at the flywheel? Is it the placement of the notch in relation to keyway? I have both 230S and 250S, as well as ones from LT160, and 230E. Would be interesting to compare.

[JustRandy]

I think there is a piece of metal tacked onto the flywheel that determines the timing.  When it goes by the pickup coil it tells the coil to fire.  So it would be that metal bit in relation to the keyway.  Yeah it would be interesting to compare.

If you need that plate let me know.  I don't think I'd ever need it and I'm sure there's another one on the engine sitting in the woods.