Another one back from the dead (1997 King Quad 300 LT-FWDX)

[Hagbard]

The machine I had before the 206RB-5 (a 205RB-1) had no needle feed, and it was a nightmare trying to keep seams straight, sew curves, and doing anything other than straight lines on multiple layers. Stitch length was very inconsistent as a result as well which, while not functionally a big deal, looked like dogshit. 

[JustRandy]

The guy in the video made it seem like not much of a big deal but crooked stitching of random lengths sounds like a big deal to me.

So how do all the grandmas' manage to keep it straight without all the fancy stuff?  Skill?

[Hagbard]

Most grandmas aren't trying to sew through 8 layers of canvas or upholstery vinyl   It's easy to see why the china patcher is so popular, the financial barrier to entry is super low, but the thing requires a LOT of fiddling around with and modding to make it a decent workable machine.  Think Chinese pit bike vs a Factory KTM   I'm encouraging you to find the sewing machine equivalent to an early 90's race bike

Edited October 28, 2021 by Hagbard

[JustRandy]

Well I'm pretty good at making my own things so maybe the chinese is a possibility.  Nothing about my 230 was designed by suzuki except the plastics.  And all the work and expense I've put into that quad yet I haven't touched it in 8 years.  Oh well, the fun part was building it.  Likewise the prospect of building a sewing machine is more interesting than actually using it.

[Hagbard]

There's a pretty robust community around them, including a FB group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1646031288779869) with lots of tricks and tips to getting them dialed in.  It's a good way to learn about how the machines work, and what features are important to you. Some people end up getting a bigger machine, and there are others like this dude Gary Knape, who is probably one of the most knowledgeable folks I know about the CLSP, who uses it for his leatherwork, but also owns 2 or 3 regular industrial machines as well. I think he does it just to show people that it's entirely possible despite all their troubles with the thing LMAO.  If that's the route you take, there's an outfit called Bantam Saddle and Tack who sell the CLSP machines pre-setup, costs a bit more than buying one straight from eBay, but they do a lot of the finishing. There's also a new upgraded version of the patcher being sold as a "8 Bearing" model, which I hear is a vast improvement. You can find video of little old ladies making shoes on them, sitting on a street corner in China somewhere. They're hand cranked, but with a bit of ingenuity you can easily motorize them with an Enduro servo motor for about $40.  Making a table or stand for the machine is another popular project because it comes with three janky tripod legs that really don't work that well. The single biggest issue with them appears to be thread tension, and learning how to adjust the machine to accommodate different thicknesses. I lurk in the group and occasionally offer general sewing advice, but I literally never set up my patcher. Had my ex-FIL machine a belt groove in the pulley and the thing just sits in it's original box on a shelf in my shop. Think I have an extra motor too... Wanna trade it for a valve job or two? LOL

[Hagbard]

Ok, so quick actual Suzuki question you might be able to answer better than the internet at large - Is there any thing that would prevent me from marrying the right side case of a 230s to the left side of a 230E? They look incredibly similar outwardly, just not sure if there’s anything that would prevent them meeting internally. I have a 230 S motor that is essentially good for parts, as it had a catastrophic chain failure that has been JB welded, poorly.  Most concerning of all is the motor mount cracked on that side of the case. Essentially it would be at 230 with a kickstart on the right and electric start and pull start on the left. But it seems like I would have seen something like this sooner if it were possible.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

The reason I ask is I finally got the compression tester and the results were less than spectacular. I have Top and components and gaskets ready to rebuild one or the other, and I figured that as long as I’m fu***** with it, I might as well go whole hog. just don’t want to get to the point where I’ve split the cases and then find out it’s a no-go. 

Kiddo and I decorated his shabby looking spare gas tank. He did the “night” side,

 

I did the rising sun thing   

Su Zu Kai? Hai! 

[JustRandy]

What's wrong with the 230E case?  Why would you need to split the case to rebuild the top?

The only issue I can imagine, assuming everything else generally lines up, is the crank bearings may not be in line because I don't know if cases are a machined set.  The only one i know who could definitively answer that question is Vince https://vincescycle.tripod.com/newparts/lt230s.html since he's the guy who replaces the rods on the crank.

That compression is really low.  Are you sure the valves are closing?  I'm curious what the problem is.

Looks like a culturally appropriate yin yang gas tank!

We'll have to circle back to the sewing machine topic because I have too much going on at the moment.

[Hagbard]

I think that low compression may be the result of both worn rings and valves. I got a couple bits and pieces of Blaster from a guy in the same town that I got the engine from, and he was all "BTW, you should stay away from this guy parting out 230's on Facebook, he sells junk" so I've got a good inclination that this thing is smoked. The reason I ask about the 230S is I just think it would be funny to have 3 starters on the same motor. I know. Dumb idea. Google "bozogoku" and use that as a frame of reference - I think you'll find I'm being entirely reasonable by comparison. Doubt I'd even do it, but curiosity has gotten the better of me, and I just really want to know if it's even theoretically possible, however ridiculous. 

I'll probably just end up rebuilding the top end of the 230E and use the 230S cam in it. Then I can play shadetree machinist with a file on the 230E cam.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Hagbard

[JustRandy]

Well if you really wanna know then call Vince and ask.  I chatted with him a couple hours a decade ago.  He'll probably tell you that the 230 isn't such a great engine to build unless you have him install a new rod and weld the crank.  He can put the 17mm rod on and it doesn't cost that much if you're willing to split the cases.

Yeah a 230ES would be pretty cool.  A lot of the reason I don't want to fiddle with mine anymore is I don't feel like kicking it incessantly.

I didn't think of filing the cam but yeah you could file off the round part to increase the lift then file off the peak of the lobe to lower the lift and increase duration.  I've heard of guys doing that before.  It doesn't even matter if the round part is polished since the rocker just glides over it.  But if you file the lobe you'll have to assemble it and use paint to determine if the cam contacts the rocker fully.

[Hagbard]

“Hi Andy.
Actually a good question. People mix and match engines like this with 
the old 200 Hondas. There is a very good chance if you work with the 
same model 230E and 230S they should work together. Since the E is 
electric start, we could take the 2 cranks and make one for you using 
half of one crank and half of the other.
Thanks,
Vince”

 

Possible! And as predicted- I’d have to send him the cranks to make the Frankencrank. I’m (somewhat) seriously considering it lol. If I decide to pull the trigger on that 250s cam it’s pretty much a done deal. 

[JustRandy]

Well that's interesting.  I guess the E has an alternator that needs to be incorporated on the crank.  I'm starting to think this is something that I should do.

If you do it be sure to get the 17mm long rod.  And have the crank welded.

Since you have both engines can you weigh them and tell me how much extra the 230E engine weighs vs the 230S?

[Hunter19]

I have a 1998 Suzuki King quad love it I had one major problem with it it was the rectifier I had to replace it other than that runs like a charm never sell it

[Hagbard]

On 10/29/2021 at 6:55 PM, JustRandy said:

Well that's interesting.  I guess the E has an alternator that needs to be incorporated on the crank.  I'm starting to think this is something that I should do.

If you do it be sure to get the 17mm long rod.  And have the crank welded.

Since you have both engines can you weigh them and tell me how much extra the 230E engine weighs vs the 230S?

Once I pull the 230E, I'll weigh them, sure.  What exactly do they weld on the crank? can't be webs to the pin, right?

4 minutes ago, Hunter19 said:

I have a 1998 Suzuki King quad love it I had one major problem with it it was the rectifier I had to replace it other than that runs like a charm never sell it

Yeah, one of the first things Randy mentioned was the rectifier. I think he uses one from some big ol' Triumph, not sure what model to ask for.

[Hunter19]

There were plenty of times when I got stuck in four-wheel-drive and then I shifted into differential lock low the machine just crawled right out it’s an amazing machine a lot of tork. 

[JustRandy]

3 hours ago, Hagbard said:

Once I pull the 230E, I'll weigh them, sure.

Thanks!  I think the 230S weighs 50lbs and the frame is 20lb so I'm always scratching my head how a whole quad is over 300 lol

3 hours ago, Hagbard said:

  What exactly do they weld on the crank? can't be webs to the pin, right?

Vince told me what happens is a shock in the driveline causes one half of the crank to twist relative to the other half, like for instance when jumping and landing while on the throttle.  So welding the crank to the pin prevents that twisting and keeps the crank straight forever.

Picture here https://www.trx450r.org/threads/builders-welding-the-crank-pin.198616/

3 hours ago, Hagbard said:

Yeah, one of the first things Randy mentioned was the rectifier. I think he uses one from some big ol' Triumph, not sure what model to ask for.

Yep if you ever have to turn the headlights on to keep it running then you need a new regulator.  Turning on the lights reduces the voltage.  Once voltage gets over 16 or so the CDI won't work.  (I have a voltmeter permanently attacked to the quad.)

It's not a question of if your regulator will fail, but when.  It's the most common problem on the kings.  Usually you can see a crack in the back (from the heat).

I just called Ricks and asked for the biggest they had.  They said it is for a Triumph but I don't know the model either.  I just asked out of curiosity.

The packing list says "10-815; Universal Style Rectifier-Regulator".  You probably won't like the price lol ($150 - 5 years ago).  I suppose you don't have to get the biggest, but I have 2 winches and lots of lights and they assured me that regulator would handle 50 amps, which still isn't enough to power a winch but it's the best I could do.

When you're ready to buy a winch be sure to ask me first.  I've done a lot of research.

[JustRandy]

3 hours ago, Hunter19 said:

There were plenty of times when I got stuck in four-wheel-drive and then I shifted into differential lock low the machine just crawled right out it’s an amazing machine a lot of tork. 

Me too.  That extra wheel pulling sure makes a difference!

With those low gears it's the most fun you can have at 1 mph lol

[JustRandy]

I just completed my quarterly pc restarting procedure freeing enough memory so I can load more pics now

I did this after getting hung up on a small but stubborn stump protruding through the a-arms that required me fetching my truck to free the quad.  Never again I said!

 

Another view of the beefing:

50 lbs of lead weighs holding the front end down:

[JustRandy]

I was toying with the idea of adding a gas tank to the front rack to add weight (and gas).

[JustRandy]

Here's my plug setup so I can plug in other winches ( on my trailer that dumps) into the same switch.  And plug other batteries into the circuit or chargers.

[JustRandy]

This was a fun project:

[JustRandy]

Chainsaw mount:

[JustRandy]

I can't praise that 5000lb winch enough.  It's awesome!  I used to bid $50ish on ebay and win most of the time.  I have at least 3 of them.

The 2000lb is pretty crappy but works for the back of the quad.  Mostly I use it for towing logs or whatever.

I guess that's enough for today.  Don't want to make this another photobucket lol

 

[coyote56]

I am loving this.

currently working on a Quad Runner 250 which is basically the same bike... anyway you could post some pictures of what your carb looks like? When I picked this one up most of the cables going to the carb were removed. Including the entire choke cable for whatever reason the previous owner had. I have figured out where that goes and have a new cable on the way. I know where the fuel cable goes, choke cable and the throttle.. other than that I have 3 connections on the other side that I have no idea what attaches to any of them. I am fairly certain one of them has to be for the vacuum line to the fuel pump but have no idea which one it is or what goes on the other two.

 

[JustRandy]

10 minutes ago, coyote56 said:

anyway you could post some pictures of what your carb looks like?

The first thing I did was get rid of the stock carb and that was 10 years ago so I'm probably not going to be much help.

13 minutes ago, coyote56 said:

I am fairly certain one of them has to be for the vacuum line to the fuel pump but have no idea which one it is or what goes on the other two.

The vacuum line to the pump should be on the front of the carb.  I put mine on the intake boot.  If you blow air through it then you should feel it coming out inside the carb near the boot.

Another one should be a vent and the third one should be the fuel inlet.

Maybe Hagbard can be of more help.

[Hagbard]

I’m pretty sure the vacuum port was top center, above the intake boot, but the replacement carb I got didn’t have one. So I went to a regular petcock.  There are two vent lines one goes high one goes low. Actually realized I have the original carbs sitting here, vacuum line is indeed top center. 

Fuel inlet bottom left, the two brass “horns” at 9 & 3 are the vents. I believe the white plastic one is also a vacuum line, as it empties into the carb just inside the spigot. I can’t for the life of me remember where it goes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I just got a replacement one on eBay for $20. I think if you scroll back to maybe the first or second page of this mega thread, you can see some info about it. I believe it was OEM for a Polaris 300cc  machine. I had to drill out the threads in the clutch and throttle cable ferrules to accept a slip fit cable. That and the idle speed adjustment screw is next to impossible to reach when the quad is warm, so get one with the cable end. 

[JustRandy]

35 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

I believe the white plastic one is also a vacuum line, as it empties into the carb just inside the spigot. I can’t for the life of me remember where it goes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

That's probably the one that goes to the fuel pump to make it pump.  I don't have it on my carb so I tapped into the boot.

[Hagbard]

The curved one on the top was the vac line for the pump. Not sure what else could be vacuum actuated. 

Love those handguards, gives me a hardcore Street Hawk vibe =D  

 

Also, the canteen pouch with the variety sampler is a nice touch!

Edited November 1, 2021 by Hagbard

[JustRandy]

6 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

The curved one on the top was the vac line for the pump. Not sure what else could be vacuum actuated.

The petcock I guess.  I don't remember what I did to the petcock but I don't use that vacuum line.  Seems like "off" is on and "on" or "reserve" is off.

11 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Love those handguards, gives me a hardcore Street Hawk vibe =D 

Yeah I'm pretty proud of those.  That was a fun little project.  They don't help as much as I'd hoped concerning the briers but they sure help keeping my hands warm.  And they're indestructible.

16 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Also, the canteen pouch with the variety sampler is a nice touch!

It's pretty much just Laphroaig now.  That stuff is currency in this area.  Back when I took that pic I was sampling lots of scotch but recently everyone decided nothing beats the Islay.

The chainsaw mount comes in real handy too since I hate laying the chain on the steel racks and having it slide around.  The big wing nut makes spinning it on and off easy while securely holding the saw.

The front winch is another design marvel since said winch resides in the back lol, but I hate tangled cable so there is a guide on the front rack holding the cable such that it winds perfectly regardless which direction I'm pulling.

[Hagbard]

Yeah, you’re right. One is for the petcock the other is for the pulse fuel pump. 

[JustRandy]

Yeah but I don't know which is which.  Since you said your carb is missing one I'm assuming you're using the other for the fuel pump.