Another one back from the dead (1997 King Quad 300 LT-FWDX)

[Hagbard]

LMAO that IMGUR post that I thought only you and maybe the mod would see went Most Viral.

[JustRandy]

10 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

LMAO that IMGUR post that I thought only you and maybe the mod would see went Most Viral.

Wonder what explains all the attention?  Slow news day?

After reading the comments I'd say almost certainly the automatic oiler stopped working.

[Hagbard]

Imgur says it was the Yamaha tag, apparently there is quite a rabid fandom.   With such a low financial barrier to entry, I can see why they’re so popular.  

The oiler was long gone when this happened, there’s an aftermarket delete plate where the oiler should be, and it isn’t anything recent.

 

this was the condition of the wrist pin bearing when I removed it:

I heard from the kid today, and extracted out of him that it was just a parts bike he picked up last week for the wheels. Which is funny, because the KFX80 was essentially the same exact thing, so we traded parts bikes. 

[Hagbard]

 

Like, um... take my money.  I get a little extra gasket for the next go around.  Even at $145 it's a bargain made in China.

[JustRandy]

38 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Imgur says it was the Yamaha tag, apparently there is quite a rabid fandom.   With such a low financial barrier to entry, I can see why they’re so popular.

Not just that but the blaster, warrior, banshee, and raptor are unique machines.  The only thing suzuki ever had was the zilla and maybe the king quad if all the gears make it unique.  Honda is the mediocrity and kawasaki the third wheel leaving polaris as the village idiot.

45 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

The oiler was long gone when this happened, there’s an aftermarket delete plate where the oiler should be, and it isn’t anything recent.

Maybe someone didn't know the oiler was disabled?

I don't know how else to produce that damage to the piston and bearings other than lack of oil.

Did you examine the sleeve for evidence of seizing?

39 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Like, um... take my money.  I get a little extra gasket for the next go around.  Even at $145 it's a bargain made in China.

Like, what inflation???  lol

[Hagbard]

27 minutes ago, JustRandy said:

Not just that but the blaster, warrior, banshee, and raptor are unique machines.  The only thing suzuki ever had was the zilla and maybe the king quad if all the gears make it unique.  Honda is the mediocrity and kawasaki the third wheel leaving polaris as the village idiot.

Maybe someone didn't know the oiler was disabled?

I don't know how else to produce that damage to the piston and bearings other than lack of oil.

Did you examine the sleeve for evidence of seizing?

Like, what inflation???  lol

Love the hierarchy of quad supremacy lol! It's funny because it's true. Yamaha is a consistent finisher in racing too. YFZ450's all day long. I see EVERY SINGLE TEAM at races driving around on a Honda utility quad between motos. No matter what bikes they ride, Honda is nearly ubiquitous as their go-getter. Speaks to reliability and not much else I suppose. 

My suspicion is that someone just grabbed the wrong gas can to fill it up. Sh** happens. More often than not.  Sleeve looks clean like a broke-dicked dog. Just a little flash rusted. It looks like the piston was reused AFTER breaking rings. I bet someone re-ringed it, put on a new jug, and sold it cheap to some kid who failed to put premix in it. Just spitballing but it seems most likely.

My personal theory is that the Chinese are trying to undermine Japan's secondary market by flooding the zone with cheaply made products that fit well enough and cost 1/8th as much.  Law of large numbers. But I'm no economist. 

[JustRandy]

49 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Yamaha is a consistent finisher in racing too.

They have the 5-valve head.  Everyone else is stubborn I guess.  Or maybe it's like pro wrestling.

50 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

Honda is nearly ubiquitous as their go-getter. Speaks to reliability and not much else I suppose. 

Pretty much.  It's almost like Honda goes out of its way to not do anything particularly well other than always working.  Maybe being ok at everything but good at nothing is their shtick.

57 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

I bet someone re-ringed it, put on a new jug, and sold it cheap to some kid who failed to put premix in it.

So the piston fried in another jug?  Yeah that makes sense except at what point did bearings fall apart?

1 hour ago, Hagbard said:

My personal theory is that the Chinese are trying to undermine Japan's secondary market by flooding the zone with cheaply made products that fit well enough and cost 1/8th as much.  Law of large numbers. But I'm no economist. 

That sounds about right.  You have too much sense for an economist lol.

[Hagbard]

This turned out to be a nice little score. Just happened to have a foil decal from that little sticker begging project that was a perfect fit  

Cleaned up pretty good with some Dawn and CameO polish. Have to grind down some bubblegum and see if they actually achieved penetration or if it’s just a bunch of crud sitting on the top of a fissure. There’s some evidence of blow by where the core mates with the can but a little work with a peen hammer and some decent rivets in place of junk drawer hardware should shore that up. 

[JustRandy]

Looks good!

[Hagbard]

Repacked it last night, made a video with the GoPro to test it, and can’t find the cable, so pics will have to suffice. The sheer luxury of my workspace is breathtaking, I know.

Rest assured they don’t do justice to the craftsmanship and materials choice. Once again I’ve selected the finest available repacking kit available in my attic.

I like to use the backer paper like a rolling machine to get the mat nice and tight 😂

I forgot to mention that I discovered the core was about an inch short of where it ought be, which was disappointing but not enough to rain on this parade of jury rigging. I found that the tailpiece from a bathroom sink drain is approximately the proper ID on both ends to accommodate the core, and the actual tailpiece of the silencer itself. Pretty much acts like a quiet core insert.
 

I think I should get extra points for that bit of ingenuity and/or frugality.
 

I don’t think it should amount to enough added back pressure to foil the efforts of the exhaust tuning, as I believe it’s well beyond the stinger and shouldn’t have much effect on power. 🤞

Edited October 20, 2021 by Hagbard

[JustRandy]

Needs more garlic powder man.  Maybe some black pepper corns. 

What's the purpose of the sink drain pipe?  Looks like it's covering half the holes.

[Hagbard]

If it wasn’t there, if the core would not make connection with the tail end of the silencer, and just be blowing glass out the end

[JustRandy]

I looked up the quiet core and it looks like it goes inside the pipe to increase resistance to exiting the pipe which gives the exhaust more time to quiet down.  I did the same sort of thing with my 250 by sticking the next size down pipe in the tail pipe.  The reduced diameter causes just enough backpressure to make it quieter.

But what it looks like you have is a pipe over the top of the other pipe which doesn't increase backpressure and you've covered half of the holes which seems like it would make it louder.  It will work but it might not be very quiet.

The muffler works by dumping energy into each of those holes as the wave moves along the length.  If you reduce the holes along the length, you reduce the damping capabilities.

The inserts can't go over top of other pipes because they have screens on the ends.

 

[Hagbard]

 

Finally got parts in the mail and built the Blaster motor on Friday night, dropped it in the frame Saturday morning and then finished up the LT80. Patched the leaky gas tank with some plastic weld epoxy putty, hooked up the brake cables and put the new DWT tires on the front. Looks like a stanced little monster truck lol. 

 

Carolina Squat Quad

 

 

Also picked up an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner - HIGHLY recommended for carbs!  

[JustRandy]

Looks like some hella bumpsteer to build up the arms lol.  Are the rims flipped?

[Hagbard]

Yeah, it's just as wide as I can get it for him to learn on without tipping over in the yard. I realized that the treads were reversed, so I switched sides after this pic. Have the throttle governed down so he can't go crazy just yet. This kid has a tendency to try and ram things, so I need to minimize the possible damage. He could use some upper body strength anyway =P

Cleaning the Blaster's carb tonight and I might just try to fire it up tomorrow. Got it all put back together for the most part.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Hagbard

[JustRandy]

Be careful.  I don't have any bumpsteer yet when I clipped a tree the handlebars hit my leg with such force I thought I was gonna die.  It was like taking a louisville slugger to the femur.  It was all I could do to compose myself enough to turn the key off to stop the vibration.

A buddy clipped a tree and broke his arm bones near the hand.  Cost him $20k to pin it back together.  He's the one with the 700 king with the backwards caster.

[Hagbard]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:49 PM, JustRandy said:

The one on the left has got to be the 250 cam.  Look at that duration!  The other two are so similar that I can't tell which is the 230 or 4x4 cam.  I'm guessing the one in the middle is the 230.

So... back to our cam discussion~ 

I haven't pulled the trigger yet on the 250S cam in some desperate bid to find a thrifty alternative. I'm a fukn penny pincher at heart, and even though I *could* spend $140 on a cam, I don't *want* to lol.  

I've confirmed what I suspected to be true - that Suzuki used the same OHV design in a shitload of motors with minor tweaks here and there, and the cams are physically interchangeable between a wide variety of bikes and quads.  It's just a matter of finding the actual specs of these different cams and the purported "upgrades" offered by various aftermarket companies, because I discovered most of these companies don't actually MAKE anything, they buy it from Megacycle. See pg 49 here: https://www.megacyclecams.com/catalog/catalog_optimized.pdf

Lots of good info in these two threads:

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/367643-dr-z-125-cam-info/

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/826160-dr100-performance-mods/

 

ANY Suzuki CAM (and much more) from 
dr100
LT125
GN125
DR125/DRZ125 
LT160
LT185
DR200/XF200
LT230
LT250s 
KQ300

family WILL FIT, as they are basically, the same engine with different Bore x Stroke.

So on top of THAT, there are also China bikes that borrowed, stole, or licensed the design from Su Zu Kai, so there are also now aftermarket purported upgrades for those as well.  Whole bunch of these on eBay for around $45 shipped from China.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264449513003?hash=item3d926b562b:g:LdkAAOSwmHhda2Fr

I've messaged the seller trying to find actual numbers to compare by, doubtful I'll get a meaningful response, but I tried

 

PS - I was looking through this ancient as* thread on ATVConnection, I think it started out about cams and turned into a navel gazing exercize about LED's with a very familiar squid named JustRandy  

https://atvconnection.com/forums/suzuki/226867-85-88-suzuki-lt230s-quadsport-help-1065.html

[Hagbard]

Making heads too. 

[Hagbard]

More info in here from Zomby Woof: 

https://advrider.com/f/threads/the-dr200-thread.229927/page-12

"The Hotcams cam for the DR-Z125 wil, in fact work, and be a reasonable improvement over the stock, and unbelievably mild DR200 cam.
There are a number of available options from a number of other custom grinders.
Megacycle having probably the best looking available profiles.
For reference, I will provide you with the real numbers."

The hot cams specs. are

Int
.324" lift (.240"lobe)
215.5 duration at 1mm
Exh
.315" lift (.240" lobe)
215.5 duration at 1mm

stock DR200 cam
_________lobe lift______valve lift____Duration at .050"
Intake____.245"________.320"_______204
Exhaust___.230"________.290"______ 200

Stock LT230 cam
_________lobe lift______valve lift____Duration at .050"
Intake____.230________.300_________214
Exhaust___.200________.245_________212

 

[JustRandy]

6 hours ago, Hagbard said:

I discovered most of these companies don't actually MAKE anything, they buy it from Megacycle. See pg 49 here: https://www.megacyclecams.com/catalog/catalog_optimized.pdf

How did you determine other companies buy from megacycle?  They have such insane lift that I've never seen in other cams.

6 hours ago, Hagbard said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264449513003?hash=item3d926b562b:g:LdkAAOSwmHhda2Fr

I've messaged the seller trying to find actual numbers to compare by, doubtful I'll get a meaningful response, but I tried

Even if you did get a coherent response I wouldn't trust it.

6 hours ago, Hagbard said:

PS - I was looking through this ancient as* thread on ATVConnection, I think it started out about cams and turned into a navel gazing exercize about LED's with a very familiar squid named JustRandy  

https://atvconnection.com/forums/suzuki/226867-85-88-suzuki-lt230s-quadsport-help-1065.html

Yeah that was the link I gave you containing The Vault with all the 230s info.  Anything you could ever want to know about 230s are in that thread, plus a bunch of other random stuff you'll have to wade through to find the nuggets.  I wonder what ever happened to that poolgod fella.

I just signed up there to ask the valve specs and it ballooned into all that.  I don't know why I tend to have that effect on threads. 

6 hours ago, Hagbard said:

Making heads too. 

I wonder what the intake valve size is on those heads.

6 hours ago, Hagbard said:

The Hotcams cam for the DR-Z125 wil, in fact work, and be a reasonable improvement over the stock, and unbelievably mild DR200 cam.

Hotcams is a stock 230 cam.

6 hours ago, Hagbard said:

Megacycle having probably the best looking available profiles.

Except for the lift which gains you nothing other than having to accommodate it.

Webcams has the best profiles but you have to send in your cam and rockers for welding.  Webcams will grind any profile you request.

Almost everyone ran webcams stage 2 back in the day.  Stage 1 is pretty close to the 250S cam.

I posted the specs of webcams, hotcams, and megacycle on one of these pages here.

I don't know how successful you'll be at finding a good cam cheaper than $140.  It might be easier to do another boat cover than all this research, especially if you ultimately find the 230S cam is pretty ubiquitous.

Probably the cheapest way out is to weld and grind your own cam.  I did that once to a bayou and it worked surprisingly well.

[Hagbard]

The Megacycle tidbit was in some DR200 or DRZ125 thread, guy managed to pry it out of a couple folks after flexing his "I'm a machinist, and I grind cams" line.

 

I just realized I promised to steer you toward a decent sewing machine and never actually did that.

Simplest route to take where you want to be is to find a used Singer 29K on craigslist in your are. Drive a couple hours and spend up to $500 if you have to. It's the machine you want. It has a walking foot, and a very unique feature called "universal feed" which means the foot can be turned 360 degrees and sew in any direction.  They're ancient, bombproof, copied by everyone (mostly poorly) and you can still buy parts for them if needed. It's basically a staple in any old school cobbler shop. The Chinese Leather Shoe Patcher you can get on eBay for like $60 is a pretty close approximation of the 29K, but it's janky as all hell. 

Other used machines to be on the lookout for are Consew 206RB-5, and Adler 69. Those are the two I use every day, and I still want a 29K, just for grins, but I don't have the space or time for one just yet. 29's can tackle some pretty heavy stuff, well worth the money, and great for repairs in particular.

 

[Hagbard]

This is a perfect example of one. It's an hour or so from where I live, I searched in the Southeast, and didn't find squat for decent industrial machines on CL, but ask around, and check FB marketplace, etc. 

https://albany.craigslist.org/atq/d/hoosick-falls-singer-29-leather-patcher/7395677921.html

[JustRandy]

Are you sure I need all that?  You're sweating $140 but having me shell out $500 for something I don't even know how to do lol.  I don't even know how sewing machines work: how does the thread get hooked from under the cloth?  I'm totally clueless.  Maybe I need something with training wheels.  Is there a KFX80 of sewing machines that I could cut my teeth on?

13 minutes ago, Hagbard said:

I searched in the Southeast, and didn't find squat for decent industrial machines on CL

Odd since this area is the textile capital of the world.  There should be old factories plum full of them.

[Hagbard]

1 hour ago, JustRandy said:

Are you sure I need all that?  You're sweating $140 but having me shell out $500 for something I don't even know how to do lol.  I don't even know how sewing machines work: how does the thread get hooked from under the cloth?  I'm totally clueless.  Maybe I need something with training wheels.  Is there a KFX80 of sewing machines that I could cut my teeth on?

Odd since this area is the textile capital of the world.  There should be old factories plum full of them.

Just giving you the benefit of my experience going through the motions and buying successively heavier and heavier duty machines that just weren't up to any task beyond making drapes. Light muslin drapes.  If you can find ANY walking foot industrial machine, you will be in good shape overall, but the best thing to have is a compound feed walking foot.  The Singer 29, 29-4, 29k etc. are all unicorns in that they have that universal direction thinger. Illustrated here by a rather annoying limey:  

 

[JustRandy]

Don't all machines have walking feet?  What makes it industrial?  Is that universal direction thingy important?

[Hagbard]

Most machines do NOT have a real walking foot. You're thinking of a presser foot. Walking foot is two alternating presser feet, so there's always a foot on the material being sewn, which keeps the layers together and prevents bunching, sagging, pursing, etc. Compound feed is walking foot where the needle bar ALSO moves in time with the inner foot, so there's an additional means of securing the layers, which is important when sewing thru multiple layers of heavy material. Industrial machines are generally heavy, cast iron machines with forged internals, versus your average Bernina or Singer home machine available at JOANN Fabrics for $400 which is made almost entirely of plastics and nylons and wilts at the sight of more than 4 layers of mom jeans denim. 

[JustRandy]

I appreciate the insight!  It sounds like the walking foot is an imperative feature, especially for beginners.  How important is it to have the compound feed?

What happens to a sewing machine that isn't heavy cast iron?  Is it that you can't use them a lot, like in a factory?  Or is it that they won't sew thick material?  How do the plastic ones fail?

[Hagbard]

This guy explains a lot about it, kinda wish I had seen something like this 5 years ago lol

 

[JustRandy]

I watched that and a few more videos and realize I need to watch some more, maybe later tonight.

Having the needle in the fabric as the fabric moves seems like the best way, but how much better is it?  Is there ever a time where catastrophe would have been avoided if the needle had traveled with the fabric?  Or is it a lot of intricate mechanism without any real benefit?  I'm referring to walking foot vs walking foot + needle.