2006 Sportsman 450 starts when pulled but not e-started

[Kawinoob]

So title tells all. achine was sitting for two years untouched.

I will post a picture with diagnostic path so far.

Replaced defective start solenoid, starter grinding but engaging.
Replaced all wiring in #1 splice with dark green, brown and red/white wires. Checked all other junctions.
Pull start works phenomenally and starts instantly.
Kill switch does absolutely nothing, but the key will stop the bike and allows it to start. Replaced key switch and pigtail at key switch. As of now all lighting is functional (was not before fixing it)

The Good:
-has new spark plug
-valves were adjusted
-key switch
-wiring appears in order after repair
-display functioning
-new battery
-always starts easily on pull rope
-etc switch

-pulsar coil

- ignition coil

I am replacing the bendix due to intermittent failure and gapping the pulsar tonight. Also, replacing battery cables and unplugging kill wire from cdi to isolate. Replacing battery wires to starter and ground cable. 

[Kawinoob]

[Mech]

Does it have a neutral switch ? Most things won't operate the starter if they think they are in gear.

[Mech]

Oh no.. I see the starter tries to operate, but grinds.. so the solenoid is working.

Starter cables, earths, or starter motor then...

You could use jumpers and put an earth on the starter and straight to the battery's earth, and another jumper straight to the starter from the battery and see if it operates.

[Kawinoob]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:18 PM, Mech said:

Oh no.. I see the starter tries to operate, but grinds.. so the solenoid is working.

Starter cables, earths, or starter motor then...

You could use jumpers and put an earth on the starter and straight to the battery's earth, and another jumper straight to the starter from the battery and see if it operates.

The bendix is bad hence the grinding. Already ordered one. Think I found my culprit, incorrectly wired key switch. Kill switch and key switch now operate in unison and kill functions as they should. I can’t attempt to start it until I get the bendix and put the flywheel cover back on. 
 

On a separate note I bought a brand new mikuni for it and it was running like s*** bogging and hesitating. It idles and starts great but does not want to rev up and cuts out as if it’s lean. Bought two size up main jets for it and will find out tomorrow if we are good. 
 

Next it’s my suspension bushings, ball joints, front tires and fluids. 

I also have a STUCK, STUCK, STUCK left front cv shaft that I am sure will break the diff case if I remove it. I did manage to remove the right cv shaft after 3 days and upon pulling the cover found nothing of concern. Thankfully. Pigtail for the 4wd was broken and I had to fix it today. So hopefully she works fine after I get that cv removed and anti-sieze the end for any future replacements. 

[Mech]

Ha.. good one.

You have dealt with cv s before then, and know the tricks, a gentle lever and then a light tap with a hammer on the opposite side, or a sharp wrench straight out after having turned it while pulling gently to centralize the circlip.. 

If the circlip is stuck or damaged though.. then it's all on. And I do believe I have seen a picture of diffs with the sides torn off... it does happen.

Good luck with that one.

[Kawinoob]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:56 PM, Mech said:

Ha.. good one.

You have dealt with cv s before then, and know the tricks, a gentle lever and then a light tap with a hammer on the opposite side, or a sharp wrench straight out after having turned it while pulling gently to centralize the circlip.. 

If the circlip is stuck or damaged though.. then it's all on. And I do believe I have seen a picture of diffs with the sides torn off... it does happen.

Good luck with that one.

Yeah I ripped the side of my diff off... I got a new housing coming and a new LH cv shaft. 

So, it does run with the key switch as of right now. It idles and starts very easy…one slight catch.

It throttles up erratically and will not maintain rpm. Valve lash got set already and we have great vacuum and a new carb. I am a little fat on my main jet, but my pilot is a 42. I jumped the main to a 180 from 167 and hardly a difference.

Also, it has fresh ethanol free 91 octane gas. I am thinking the external fuel pump took a dump due to the slight fuel trickle that I have out of it. 

Im not sure if the 2006 had a cam problem like earlier years, but I checked it as well and no visible sign with the valve cover off at least from what I can tell. 

[Mech]

Dang !

Well anyone that checks vacuum must be pretty on to it, and probably doesn't need advice from me, but.. have you tried moving the needle in it's slide.. that's what controls the mixture through most of it's range. And aftermarket carbys are often not setup right, though I'd expect a mikuni to be set pretty good. I'd compare all it's jets, including the emulsion tube and air bleed jets, and the slide needle, are all the same as the original.. and if they aren't, I'd swap them all for the old jets.

[Kawinoob]

1 hour ago, Mech said:

Dang !

Well anyone that checks vacuum must be pretty on to it, and probably doesn't need advice from me, but.. have you tried moving the needle in it's slide.. that's what controls the mixture through most of it's range. And aftermarket carbys are often not setup right, though I'd expect a mikuni to be set pretty good. I'd compare all it's jets, including the emulsion tube and air bleed jets, and the slide needle, are all the same as the original.. and if they aren't, I'd swap them all for the old jets.

I bought an OEM carb direct from a Mikuni importer. $200 instead of Polaris’s $500+

It’s the proper carby all I had to do was jet it properly for this bike 

[Kawinoob]

Well stil waiting on my fuel pump. So no progress there. I did however replace all the suspension bushings! The list is getting smaller! Yet still so much to do..

[Mech]

"And so little time"...

(Oh I don't know.. I heard it somewhere..).

[Kawinoob]

18 hours ago, Mech said:

"And so little time"...

(Oh I don't know.. I heard it somewhere..).

Okay so. I still have an issue with fuel/spark/air and not sure which. 

VALVES JUST ADJUSTED AND CHECKED FOR 3rd TIME 🙄

Air filter is new and no holes in air boot/air box cover. 

I have a new plug and the bike starts easily. I stripped my plug wire back a little for better connection.

I have a new fuel pump and a brand new Mikuni BST34.

I moved all the jetting to stock for my elevation main 167 idle 42 choke 160.

I swapped my needle and emulsion tube over because they were different as well.
Float height is also good.

Petcock is rebuilt and has good flow with a new filter and fuel lines. 

I am still running lean, and I can verify this by choking it and it runs better. Will NOT maintain rpm at constant throttle.

VERY CONFUSED AS TO WHY WE ARE HERE LOL
 

****before anyone suggest a re-jet this is at Polaris’s recommended jetting via the manual for my elevation****

Am I possibly looking at a CDI?

[davefrombc]

Have you checked system voltages,  tried to rev it up with headlights on? . Other threads have pointed to faulty voltage regulators causing erratic running / stalling  and acting as though running lean due to a faulty voltage regulator.

[Kawinoob]

3 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Have you checked system voltages,  tried to rev it up with headlights on? . Other threads have pointed to faulty voltage regulators causing erratic running / stalling  and acting as though running lean due to a faulty voltage regulator.

No I have not, please give me some direction here. What should I check and where? 
I just got a manual and repaired a LOT of wiring and have great running lighting at the moment. However it is all converted to LED lights (less draw).

[Kawinoob]

11 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Have you checked system voltages,  tried to rev it up with headlights on? . Other threads have pointed to faulty voltage regulators causing erratic running / stalling  and acting as though running lean due to a faulty voltage regulator.

My stator lead were fried at the 16 pin connector for the power control module at an earlier point. I haven’t noticed any weird functions however. 

[Mech]

If it's over advanced it would probably "hunt" at light load and light or medium steady throttle.. Just a slight surge sort of thing..

 

Pulling the choke on improving things makes me think it will be carby, not electric.. but that would apply to the advanced thing too..

Check the voltage at the battery to start with. It should be about 12.5 not running and about 13.5 idling, 14.5 at revs. It should be able to maintain the 13.5 with the lights on and a few revs. The voltage shouldn't go over about 14.7.

If you have a timing light check the ignition timing is set the specs, and then watch as you rev it a little and make sure it advances the timing..

Check the exhaust isn't blocked.

If the air filter is meant to be oiled, make sure it is.

Err... I'll have a think what else..

[Mech]

Ok.. one question..  When you say it will not maintain revs, do you mean steady revs, or, that it dies away after some short time.. or something else ?

Blocked tank vent ?

Any emission gear on that bike ? Charcoal canister ? Vacuum release diaphragm on side of carby ?

I don't really know these machines at all.. haha.

[Kawinoob]

57 minutes ago, Mech said:

Ok.. one question..  When you say it will not maintain revs, do you mean steady revs, or, that it dies away after some short time.. or something else ?

Blocked tank vent ?

Any emission gear on that bike ? Charcoal canister ? Vacuum release diaphragm on side of carby ?

I don't really know these machines at all.. haha.

Will not maintain an rpm at given throttle above 3000rpm. Rpm’s fall and rise slowly as if fuel level drops and then catches up.

 Very distinctly lean, bogs with a lot of throttle and then catches up. 

However…the spark plug is dark brown…that indicates an otherwise rich condition..

Tank vent is good.
No emissions equipment.

No air cut valve on carb. 

[Mech]

Well the float needle and jet might be for something with a fuel pump.. and be too small for a gravity feed.

And I suppose you'd have checked the slide is free and the diaphragm's good and working.

I've been baffled before with cv carbies not revving, and it's eventually been because they had no, or not enough air cleaner restriction..  They have to have a bit.

And sorry to mention it but...  on the slide needle, if it had two plastic washers, one top and one below, are you sure they didn't get muddled.. they are sometimes/often different thickness.. but some few thou.. About a needle clips worth maybe.. The problem sounds like it's in the needle's range of operation..  How about the air bleed to the emulsion tube ? Was that changable ?

"Rpm’s fall and rise slowly as if fuel level drops and then catches up. "..

 

Hmmm.

[Kawinoob]

8 hours ago, Mech said:

Well the float needle and jet might be for something with a fuel pump.. and be too small for a gravity feed.

And I suppose you'd have checked the slide is free and the diaphragm's good and working.

I've been baffled before with cv carbies not revving, and it's eventually been because they had no, or not enough air cleaner restriction..  They have to have a bit.

And sorry to mention it but...  on the slide needle, if it had two plastic washers, one top and one below, are you sure they didn't get muddled.. they are sometimes/often different thickness.. but some few thou.. About a needle clips worth maybe.. The problem sounds like it's in the needle's range of operation..  How about the air bleed to the emulsion tube ? Was that changable ?

"Rpm’s fall and rise slowly as if fuel level drops and then catches up. "..

 

Hmmm.

I guess I should add I am a diesel mechanic for the daily. 
I have checked what I believe to be the simple things first.
Carburetor disassembly/reassembly was meticulous. 
I think I am worried that either 

1: I have port spark under throttle

2: This is a bad carb right out of the gate

[Kawinoob]

9 hours ago, Mech said:

Well the float needle and jet might be for something with a fuel pump.. and be too small for a gravity feed.

And I suppose you'd have checked the slide is free and the diaphragm's good and working.

I've been baffled before with cv carbies not revving, and it's eventually been because they had no, or not enough air cleaner restriction..  They have to have a bit.

And sorry to mention it but...  on the slide needle, if it had two plastic washers, one top and one below, are you sure they didn't get muddled.. they are sometimes/often different thickness.. but some few thou.. About a needle clips worth maybe.. The problem sounds like it's in the needle's range of operation..  How about the air bleed to the emulsion tube ? Was that changable ?

"Rpm’s fall and rise slowly as if fuel level drops and then catches up. "..

 

Hmmm.

I figured it out 🤣😂🤣😂🤣

The carb vent tubes were ran down the PVT intake and as a by product it was stealing vacuum from the carburetor. 
I pulled the vacuum vent lines out of the PVT and “voila” no more “lean” condition. 

This had me thrown for a loop because the plug color was so perfect.

Also, the kill switch needed a clean up and I bought an eBay one. No more touchy kill switch. No electrical problems as of right now. 
 

My exhaust rocker was damaged though as if someone had done a cam and not replaced the rocker. Ordering today.

Woohoo!!

[Mech]

Ok. Well done..  Float vent would be an obvious one I guess.. in hindsight !! 

It's a concern to have to admit to having seen that before.. Dang... Memory and focus isn't what it used to be. And I was sitting here with that feeling that the answer was right on the tip of my tongue.. That I'd seen that exact symptom before..haha.

And yeah, I guessed you must be some sort of mech to be using a vacuum gauge..  That's old school.. and a bit of a lost art.

Never hurts to brainstorm though huh.. sometimes just talking it through helps our thought processes ( I wish).

 

[Kawinoob]

5 minutes ago, Mech said:

Ok. Well done..  Float vent would be an obvious one I guess.. in hindsight !! 

It's a concern to have to admit to having seen that before.. Dang... Memory and focus isn't what it used to be. And I was sitting here with that feeling that the answer was right on the tip of my tongue.. That I'd seen that exact symptom before..haha.

And yeah, I guessed you must be some sort of mech to be using a vacuum gauge..  That's old school.. and a bit of a lost art.

Never hurts to brainstorm though huh.. sometimes just talking it through helps our thought processes ( I wish).

 

Yeah seeing it for what it is usually take some time unless its very obvious. Glad you all could talk me through it! I was very sure it was a carb issue as well myself. Not having enough fuel and being properly jetted never made any sense lol. 

[Mech]

This mate...

"Rpm’s fall and rise slowly as if fuel level drops and then catches up. "..

It's obvious now..  I've seen it before.. On cars and bikes.

If anyone gets that symptom..  Remember this thread..

[Kawinoob]

3 hours ago, Mech said:

This mate...

"Rpm’s fall and rise slowly as if fuel level drops and then catches up. "..

It's obvious now..  I've seen it before.. On cars and bikes.

If anyone gets that symptom..  Remember this thread..

Well I’m not going to close this case yet. I still have the diff to rebuild and a test drive to do.

 Finished the rear end and new tires for the front. Waiting on a drive shaft for the front and the exhaust rocker. 
 

Changed all Fluid and filters, greased her up.

I think I might need to size up the main slightly. I need to know what max rpm for this machine is though. service manual does not say as far as I can tell.

[Mech]

General rule is about 16 percent leaner for every 1000 foot of elevation..

There are a few ways of testing the main jet setting.. Full throttle blast along a long road or big hill, then pull clutch (pressing down on the shift lever should disengage the manual foot operated clutch) or throw into neutral,  kill motor, then read plug colour. Or, and this is simpler, full throttle for a few seconds, then ease the throttle slightly and note whether it smooths out/pulls better and/or picks up a very few revs.

[Kawinoob]

15 minutes ago, Mech said:

General rule is about 16 percent leaner for every 1000 foot of elevation..

There are a few ways of testing the main jet setting.. Full throttle blast along a long road or big hill, then pull clutch (pressing down on the shift lever should disengage the manual foot operated clutch) or throw into neutral,  kill motor, then read plug colour. Or, and this is simpler, full throttle for a few seconds, then ease the throttle slightly and note whether it smooths out/pulls better and/or picks up a very few revs.

I feel like when I rev it out, it is shorting itself in the top. It’s not hitting rev limiter as far as I can tell. However, it’s hard to tell when you aren’t riding lol.

Can’t says it’s Faulty without a load. 
I am 0-1800ft elevation 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Kawinoob

[Mech]

Well...

I doubt it has a rev limiter as such.. not like modern cars do anyway. The induction will be the limit I think.. The manual may say otherwise. The trouble is that if they retard the timing to limit revs, the motor gets hot, and if they advance it to try and limit revs(while someone is holding the throttle wide open), it's not good for the bearings and rings.  That's why they kill the ignition on modern cars and you get that horrible bucking and jerking as the rev limiter kicks in and out.. Nobody keeps trying to push them once that starts.. haha.

If it's jetted for best economy/power balance, and you back off very slightly, the vacuum goes up for a second, and the mixture goes slightly richer than at a steady full throttle. If it was a bit rich to start, it will sound and feel rich, and if it was about right it will pull ever so slightly nicer.

All that's a bit harder to sense with a diaphragm carby though.. But then, those carbies aren't really made for thrashing.. they are made to be user friendly. If you want performance, get a better carby.  You could try it though and might be able to tell about the mixture..  It's the test I'd do.

All that said.. I'd just assume that if the emulsion tube, slide needle, and emulsion air bleed are all right as per the book for your bike and altitude, and it runs nicely through the needle's range of control, then the standard main, for your altitude and bike, will be pretty right too..  We don't often use main jets to their limit. It should be quite safe.. unless you live in a desert or something and really do use full throttle in a high temp and for prolonged periods of time. If it pulls right through the power range with full throttle, and just slowly fades at the very top as revs build, it's probably fine, induction is limiting it. If it starts losing power as you open the throttle the last little bit, and it's before it's at full revs, then yeah, perhaps a bit more fuel is needed. Perhaps.. too much fuel, quite a bit too much fuel, will give similar symptoms.

I'd ride and monitor it for a bit (and likely change the needle clip position).. before I changed main jets..

Edited September 25, 2022 by Mech

[Kawinoob]

58 minutes ago, Mech said:

Well...

I doubt it has a rev limiter as such.. not like modern cars do anyway. The induction will be the limit I think.. The manual may say otherwise. The trouble is that if they retard the timing to limit revs, the motor gets hot, and if they advance it to try and limit revs(while someone is holding the throttle wide open), it's not good for the bearings and rings.  That's why they kill the ignition on modern cars and you get that horrible bucking and jerking as the rev limiter kicks in and out.. Nobody keeps trying to push them once that starts.. haha.

If it's jetted for best economy/power balance, and you back off very slightly, the vacuum goes up for a second, and the mixture goes slightly richer than at a steady full throttle. If it was a bit rich to start, it will sound and feel rich, and if it was about right it will pull ever so slightly nicer.

All that's a bit harder to sense with a diaphragm carby though.. But then, those carbies aren't really made for thrashing.. they are made to be user friendly. If you want performance, get a better carby.  You could try it though and might be able to tell about the mixture..  It's the test I'd do.

All that said.. I'd just assume that if the emulsion tube, slide needle, and emulsion air bleed are all right as per the book for your bike and altitude, and it runs nicely through the needle's range of control, then the standard main, for your altitude and bike, will be pretty right too..  We don't often use main jets to their limit. It should be quite safe.. unless you live in a desert or something and really do use full throttle in a high temp and for prolonged periods of time. If it pulls right through the power range with full throttle, and just slowly fades at the very top as revs build, it's probably fine, induction is limiting it. If it starts losing power as you open the throttle the last little bit, and it's before it's at full revs, then yeah, perhaps a bit more fuel is needed. Perhaps.. too much fuel, quite a bit too much fuel, will give similar symptoms.

I'd ride and monitor it for a bit (and likely change the needle clip position).. before I changed main jets..

Duly noted. I will keep this in mind for the coming weeks. 
Still have a lot to do before riding. 

Front diff

Rear torsion bushings

Exh. Rocker

Reupholster seat

Front cv shaft

 

[Kawinoob]

15 hours ago, Mech said:

Well...

I doubt it has a rev limiter as such.. not like modern cars do anyway. The induction will be the limit I think.. The manual may say otherwise. The trouble is that if they retard the timing to limit revs, the motor gets hot, and if they advance it to try and limit revs(while someone is holding the throttle wide open), it's not good for the bearings and rings.  That's why they kill the ignition on modern cars and you get that horrible bucking and jerking as the rev limiter kicks in and out.. Nobody keeps trying to push them once that starts.. haha.

If it's jetted for best economy/power balance, and you back off very slightly, the vacuum goes up for a second, and the mixture goes slightly richer than at a steady full throttle. If it was a bit rich to start, it will sound and feel rich, and if it was about right it will pull ever so slightly nicer.

All that's a bit harder to sense with a diaphragm carby though.. But then, those carbies aren't really made for thrashing.. they are made to be user friendly. If you want performance, get a better carby.  You could try it though and might be able to tell about the mixture..  It's the test I'd do.

All that said.. I'd just assume that if the emulsion tube, slide needle, and emulsion air bleed are all right as per the book for your bike and altitude, and it runs nicely through the needle's range of control, then the standard main, for your altitude and bike, will be pretty right too..  We don't often use main jets to their limit. It should be quite safe.. unless you live in a desert or something and really do use full throttle in a high temp and for prolonged periods of time. If it pulls right through the power range with full throttle, and just slowly fades at the very top as revs build, it's probably fine, induction is limiting it. If it starts losing power as you open the throttle the last little bit, and it's before it's at full revs, then yeah, perhaps a bit more fuel is needed. Perhaps.. too much fuel, quite a bit too much fuel, will give similar symptoms.

I'd ride and monitor it for a bit (and likely change the needle clip position).. before I changed main jets..

Here is the plug color, but this is without a load on it.