Barn find 97' Bayou 220 - Double Intake from Exhaust and Carb - I'm Stumped

[davefrombc]

I'm interested in  knowing  just for what  machine that   service manual is.

Those pictures show some pretty bad valves, but what I see there , they appear to  be more likely  the wrong valves used in some applications  and in some of them  some very serious overlapping.  Lapping  new or ground valves to an undamaged seat or  recut one shouldn't result in wear on the valve of more than a few microns;  not enough to remove  any  hard surface if the valve was only  case hardened rather than through  hardened.  Those pictures do  not show valve failures from  any proper lapping.

 

[Mech]

Haha.. And just look at the angles Dave..  But it was lapping that was the problem.. 

That center valve, and the one above it are real doozies...  I can't begin to imagine how they would get like that.. 

[Mech]

And quite a few of those valves, as far as I can see, look fine..  The seats might have been crook, or Randy's one thou valve clearance might have been a problem, but the valves look good..  I'd use some of them again, and they would I'm sure be fine(as far as I can see in that picture).. They would go for years and years..  My customers would be happy. My customers are always happy.

[JustRandy]

57 minutes ago, Mech said:

Yeah that's fine Randy.

I'll keep lapping my valves in.. I'm responsible for ensuring things are right.. I have to know they are right when I put them together, the one and only time.

In order to learn you first must be able to admit you're wrong.  Unfortunately, you don't seem to have that power.

The real tragedy here are those you presume to "help".  You should be ashamed guiding so many people so wrong.

57 minutes ago, Mech said:

Your record of failures does nothing to assure me at all.. 

Those are YOUR failures because those valves were according to YOUR method.

[JustRandy]

59 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

I'm interested in  knowing  just for what  machine that   service manual is.

Which manual?  One is DRZ, another is Deere, and the other is unknown.  I found them online in other threads debating the merits of lapping.

59 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Those pictures show some pretty bad valves, but what I see there , they appear to  be more likely  the wrong valves used in some applications 

They were all the correct valves.  Most of them are 230s (32mm valve) or 250s and 300 king (33 mm valve).  At least one is a 220 bayou.  Plus I have some heads with the valves still in them that are probably just as worn, including a bayou head.

59 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

and in some of them  some very serious overlapping. 

That's what happens to new valves installed in old seats, whether lapped or not.

59 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Lapping  new or ground valves to an undamaged seat or  recut one shouldn't result in wear on the valve of more than a few microns;  not enough to remove  any  hard surface if the valve was only  case hardened rather than through  hardened.  Those pictures do  not show valve failures from  any proper lapping.

The wear you see is from the friction between the valve surface and the seat, not the lapping.  Lapping just removes the hardness of the valve allowing it to wear faster, as the service manual said.

48 minutes ago, Mech said:

And quite a few of those valves, as far as I can see, look fine.. 

Holy cow!  And you call yourself a mechanic!?!

Every valve has a gouge worn out of it.

Hopefully you are not indicative of most Kiwi mechanics.

[JustRandy]

To the OP:

If you lapped a new valve to an old seat, here is what is going to happen:

A year or so down the road you will notice it's a bit hard to start when cold.  You'll assume it's a dirty carb or something and not think much about it.

Then the hard cold starting will get worse until eventually you're back on here asking for help.  One way or another you will get to adjusting the valve lash and you will think that was the problem and it was just routine maintenance that fixed it.  No big deal right?

But then the hard starting comes back as the valves continue to wear.  You'll readjust the valves again and again.  Eventually you'll be setting the lash every week, then every day just to get it to start.

And if you keep going like that, you'll notice a severe loss of power because each time you make a lash adjustment you are changing the cam profile.

In the end, if you keep going, the valve will pop right through the seat, forcing you to finally do it right.  Or you'll just abandon the quad and buy something else.

Here's a pic from a guy who posted on here before:

And here's how I knew:

I've seen it a lot.  And I'm not even a professional mechanic.

[davefrombc]

I'll leave the reply to the comments you made to the op to  others. I don't think the moderators would allow  me to say what I think of them  and the valve pix you added.   LOL...

Edited January 17, 2023 by davefrombc

[JustRandy]

2 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

I'll leave the reply to the comments you made to the op to  others. I don't think the moderators would allow  me to say what I think of them  and the valve pix you added.   LOL...

If it were my site I'd be more concerned that I had two guys masquerading as wise old mechanics who are evidently nothing of the kind because dispensation of bad advice only makes the site look bad in the end.

If you don't understand how valves wear, nor have ever seen one, then what could you know?

If you put a new valve in an old seat, it's going to look like the pics I posted, regardless if it was lapped or not.  Lapping only accelerates the process.  The fact that you haven't discovered that says it all.

[Mech]

Haha.. No Randy.. we haven't had those problems..

Tell me Randy, have you ever done up a car or truck head ? Did you lap the valves ? Or just replace the guides, seats and valves...  all proffesional like ?  And how long did that job last ?

Have you done many head jobs on vehicles ?  How long have they lasted ? More than a year ?

 

[JustRandy]

58 minutes ago, Mech said:

Haha.. No Randy.. we haven't had those problems..

Given that you would install some of those worn valves I posted I can't believe you have ever done a valve job.

And if you have, that's even more scary.

58 minutes ago, Mech said:

Tell me Randy, have you ever done up a car or truck head ? Did you lap the valves ? Or just replace the guides, seats and valves...  all proffesional like ?  And how long did that job last ?

Have you done many head jobs on vehicles ?  How long have they lasted ? More than a year ?

On vehicles I take heads to a machine shop to be milled and do the valves, but I do the porting myself.

On atvs I cut new seats with a Neway cutter and do not have valve problems anymore.

No one will ever go near my machines with grinding compound.

[JustRandy]

He is saying lapping results in valves and seats looking like this:

In addition to not sealing properly, curved surfaces do not allow air to flow as well as flat, which is why seats are ground to angles like this:

 

So, lapping removes hardness layer on valve, impregnates surfaces with grit, and results in curved surfaces instead of angles.

Nothing good about it.

[davefrombc]

I am saying if valves and seats look like that drawing after lapping  the idiot that did it should seek  other work.

"Multi-angle" valve jobs like shown  would only be  used on extreme performance engines.  Normal  multi-angle valve jobs are  3 angle; and with more and more manufacturers going to  aluminum heads, valve seats  are replaceable.  Cast iron  heads  may have induction hardened valve seats  but if they are cracked or badly worn  and the head is to be kept, they are machined for replaceable seats.

If you send your heads out to be serviced,  ask the shop if they  lap the valves  whether the  seats are integral  or replaceable; and  how many angles they use in performance head valve servicing.

 

 

[Mech]

I think that all of our track records speak for themselves..   

It's easy to see who knows what they are talking about, and who does the cut-n-pastes. And who the armchair expert is, and who has the experience.

[JustRandy]

2 hours ago, Mech said:

I think that all of our track records speak for themselves..   

It's easy to see who knows what they are talking about, and who does the cut-n-pastes. And who the armchair expert is, and who has the experience.

Your track record is abysmal.  You were wrong about regulators, wrong about carbs, wrong about lithium batteries, and now you're wrong about valves.

You haven't provided any substantiation for any of your claims.  All you do is cry like a kid who didn't get his way.

7 hours ago, davefrombc said:

I am saying if valves and seats look like that drawing after lapping  the idiot that did it should seek  other work.

There is no way to avoid it looking like that drawing.  Reputable shops don't lap valves.

It's an IQ test: if they lap valves, find someone else.

[Mech]

Oh dear... 

[JustRandy]

9 minutes ago, Mech said:

Oh dear... 

 

Do you oil pistons when you install them or do you install them dry?   It's another controversial topic that's been debated for years.

I want to know what you do so I can do the opposite.

[Mech]

I'm sure you will know the best way already Randy.. You should be telling us.

Do a write up and admin might make it a sticky..

[JustRandy]

6 minutes ago, Mech said:

I'm sure you will know the best way already Randy.. You should be telling us.

That's the only thing you've been right about.  Congrats!  Pop the cork on some fine scotch in celebration.

[Mech]

Haven't you got someone you could go and visit or something Randy, a lawn to cut or a hedge to trim.. 

I'm here to try and help find the answer to people's problems Randy, not entertain you.

[JustRandy]

Your "help" is the worst thing that can happen to people.

You should have told the OP not to lap his valves or at least warn him of the consequences of doing so, like I did.  You let him make an uninformed decision and now he's stuck.

I can't be here all the time to warn everyone about your bad advice because I do have a life outside of this.

[JustRandy]

This happened to arrive in my email:

How to Install Valves in your 4-Stroke

Since almost all modern valves feature some form of a thin coating or hardening process on their exterior faces, lapping valves using a lapping compound should never be considered due to the risk of wearing away the coated or hardened layer.

https://www.thumpertalk.com/articles/how-to-install-valves-in-your-4-stroke-r1069

Go tell them they are wrong.  I'd love to see that.