'01 Suzuki King Quad 300 - Won't start but has spark

[unirambler]

My son and I were "gifted" a KQ300 that doesn't run. I am beginning to try to figure out what is happening - and what is missing/disconnected. I connected a battery and found that it does have spark. I was able to get it to fire briefly when I sprayed some carb cleaner in to the carb. So, I am assuming that it is just a fuel issue. I'll begin by checking the stopcock and fuel pump and then take the carb off and clean it.

However, I am finding other things that are missing and not sure if they might affect this. I tried to test the voltage regulator/rectifier only to find there isn't one. I know there are a bunch of hoses disconnected and possibly some missing. Also, the air box was removed and all parts of the air filter are missing. The throttle cable is disconnected but I did get the cover that needed to be removed to disconnect it. Do you all see anything else that looks like it is missing from the pictures below?  

Is there anything else I should test for it not firing? Thanks for any help. This is my first quad so I am learning as I go.

[Mech]

There's a little brass barrel missing off the end of the throttle cable. It goes into the throttle cam.

If those things run out of fuel they need a lot of priming unless you fill them right up nearly.. They can be primed, and the pump tested, by sucking on the vacuum hose going to the fuel pump. The pump relies on fluctuations so to get the pump to work you have to suck then release then suck and release and on and on.

The fuel tap is controlled by vacuum. It has two positions where the fuel will only flow if vacuum is applied to the tap, and a center position where the fuel flows full time..  There is no off position. The center position is called "prime" and is for priming the carb if it's been empty. To test the pump, or aid the priming if you don't want to strain the battery, put the tap to prime and suck repeatedly on the vacuum hose off the carby.

If you take the fuel hose off the carb and lay it on it's side and then suck on the vacuum hose to the pump, it should pump out fuel. Suck on the vacuum about three times till there is a strong vacuum built up, then release it and the fuel hose should push out a slug of fuel the full diameter of the hose and about ten mills long. It needs to be on prime to do that.. Don't leave it on prime over night or it will very likely fill the sump with fuel..

[unirambler]

Thanks for responding, Mech. Is the brass barrel removable or permanently fitted? I'd like to at least temporarily re-attach the throttle cable if I can. If it is removable, I'll have to figure out where to get one.

I was able to get the quad to start with some starting fluid. Once I did that, I was able to get it to run with the fuel tap in the reserve position (there isn't much fuel in the tank).

The starting fluid was able to start the quad, however, it wouldn't run without the choke all the way up (from my reading, it sounds like the choke is off there). I then found that if I worked the throttle plate by hand, the quad would run and responded very well. However, there was a lot of smoke. Could it be the super old gas or from sitting so long? I haven't drained and filled the tank with fresh gas yet because I was planning on taking the carb apart to clean it. I think the smoke was white, but it may have been slightly blue??? Not sure. It didn't smell like burning oil, more like a carb that isn't adjusted right and is running super rich. I'll try to get a video of it tomorrow if that would help identify what is causing it. The oil level looks good (I haven't changed that yet either - I as just trying to get it running first) and it looks clean in the sight glass. It also still does not have an air filter or voltage regulator on because I haven't gotten them yet.

[Mech]

The choke should be up and forwards for warm running.

You should change the fuel. Stale fuel causes all sorts of problems.

It probably won't run right without the air filter.

The brass barrel is about six mills long and six mills round and it's drilled and slotted to accommodate the cable, and it goes into the carb's cam shaped bit on the side, in a big hole near the back.

I think it's part 39 in this parts diagram..

https://www.mickhone.com.au/partFinder/fiche/suzuki/2001/lt-f300f/carburetor#next

[Gwbarm]

White smoke is generally from water, but I have seen white smoke from marvel mystery oil, if it was flooding badly it would be black smoke, and if it was oil burning it would have a bluish tinge to it.

[Gwbarm]

I didn't know if you had the brass barrel installed , I had to take my carb back off so I took a couple of photos, hope it helps.

[Mech]

Onya Gw.. 

[unirambler]

This pictures are helpful. I looked through the can of parts that came with the bike and that part is not there. So, I'll have to find one before I can re-connect the throttle cable.

 

I've been really surprised how well this thing runs, even with bad gas! It starts up super easy and runs great. I don't understand why they were ripping it apart and saying it didn't run. I haven't fixed anything yet and have no problem with it running. I expected to be ripping it apart even more and troubleshooting, not having it running already!

[Mech]

Well...  you've got time for a beer then.

That brass barrel, (and lots of other small parts), get dropped end up either on top of the motor near the starter, or in the cooling fins, or down under the motor on the crash plate..  You might find it in one of those places. 

[Gwbarm]

That sounds good, you are almost there, that part is easy to loose, especially if you take it apart in the grass, made of brass can't find it with a magnet, ask me how I know.

[unirambler]

Good thought. I'll check and see if it happens to be there.

As I was beginning to try to re-connect the throttle, I found that the throttle cable is broken also, so got to order a new one. I wonder if that was the original problem?

[Gwbarm]

I wondered about that I never did see the end of the cable in any of your photos. The photos I posted were from a yamaha. Im Sure Suzuki is the same.

[unirambler]

Gwbarm - Yes, I believe it is about the same as the Suzuki I have. The end of the cable was there (though hidden by the frame) but the cable was broken further up in the sheath. That is why I didn't know it was broken until I tried reconnecting it.

Once I receive the new throttle cable and end part, I'll be able to try to ride it. In the meantime, I'm going to change the fuel and fuel filter, add the new voltage regulator, add an air filter and do some general cleaning up and re-connecting of vacuum lines and cables. 

[unirambler]

Welp, I finally had some time to put a throttle cable on the quad. I was able to try running it and it seems like all of the modes work (2W, 4W, 4W locked, forward, reverse, etc.). However, I am now able to say without doubt that the smoke is burning oil. I didn't see the blue-ish tinge to it before but with the longer running, I had black oil dripping from the exhaust. I was surprised it was so black since the oil in the sight glass is clean but I guess that is from going through the cylinder.

A little more info that I didn't know might be important until I saw the oil coming out of the pipe. When I first got it, I couldn't get it to turn over via the pull rope unless I opened the compression release. Even then, it was super hard to pull - I couldn't even get a spark. I got a battery connected and even then, it wouldn't turn over unless I opened the compression release. Once I did that, it would start up and run fine. After a little running, I could then pull the rope much easier - though still needing the compression release open - and start it. Also, the electric start now works great - I don't need to open the compression release with the electric start - and it starts right up and runs well (other than the cloud of smoke).

So, I am assuming that I will need to re-build at least the top end. I am wondering if the rings were slightly seized when I got it and that was why it was hard to move. Is that how you all that know more than I do about these engines see it? Could there be any other reason that it is burning so much oil but running great if not an issue with the rings? I don't have a compression tester yet but hope to get one soon. 

Thank you all for your help!

[Gwbarm]

Thats great you got it running, the oil burning is probably stuck rings from sitting too long , I would run it a little and see if they come back put a little marvel mystery oil in with the oil. You can also check the compression and see if its good.

[Mech]

You should check the crankcase isn't pressurising, that could cause it too. They all have a bit of pressure but it should drop after a minute of being turned off if the breather is working. If the breather is blocked, and you wait for a minute before undoing the fill bung, there will be a puff of slightly presurised fumes. If the breather is clear there should be no pressure.

That initial hard to start without the decomp might have been because the cylinder had a lot of oil in it, perhaps because it had been upside down, or perhaps because the oil level was too high, or, the exhaust valve has a worn seal and oil had dribbled down into the cylinder over time while being parked up. Once engines get oiled up rings they tend to keep sliding instead of scraping and so get worse if nursed along. You should try to get it under a bit of load, in higher gears, and avoid driving along in a low gear where there is no load on the motor. Try to keep the revs down and the load up.. it may come right.

If it hasn't come right after a few decent rides, which would be a good idea to suss out any other problems before doing the motor up, then yeah, time to pull the head and barrel.

[unirambler]

I believe that in the attached picture, the hose that is circled in red and not connected to anything is going in to the crankcase, so I don't think it is pressurized.

I could see the rings being oiled up and sliding instead of scraping. I'm just not sure how to get it under load with the state it is in currently. My driveway is on an incline, so I could try to use that or, if that isn't enough, we have a fairly steep hill right behind us and I could go up that. I'll try that tomorrow. If those don't put enough load on the motor though, I can't think of how to put more since it is still in pieces. I also have to be careful because the brakes don't really work currently and what goes up the hill, must come down! 😮

Gwbarm - I also got Marvel Mystery oil and can put some of that in. Should I wait until after I try to give it a load though so I don't compound the issue of floating rings, if that is what is happening?

[Gwbarm]

Yes you can wait on that I was just thinking if the rings were stuck that might help unstick them, but if what mech says is happening, just running for a while will help that, load is better. You just want to make sure the added oil is burned out of the cylinder, so you can see what its really doing, how long have you run it so far.

[unirambler]

Not very much. Without the throttle cable, I basically idled it some - maybe a few minutes total. With the throttle cable yesterday, I had it running for about 5-8 minutes. It was running better by the time I finished. In fact, I had to turn the idle down because it started idling really high.

[Gwbarm]

Yeah that sounds right , I bet the longer you run it the better it will get to a point, then you can really tell what's going on , maybe nothing, just sitting gums everything up and running brings it back, getting everything flowing like it should.

[Stargazeranch]

Sounds like maybe soak your fuel injectors

[Mech]

The load doesn't have to be too extreme, just normal riding really, but paying attention not to let it rev without load on it.. just keep using higher gears, and about a third throttle if that can be achieved. Revving it in neutral isn't a good idea. Idling isn't a good idea till it's had a good load and warm up.

That breather hose has a restriction in it somewhere, a metal plug with a really small hole in it, inside the hose in some models. It gets gummed up.. Best to run the engine till it's warmed up, turn it off, wait a minute then undo the oil filler bung..

[unirambler]

I hoped to get back more quickly but life has gotten on the way. I sprayed some carb cleaner in the cylinder to soak for a couple of days to try to loosen the rings up. I then put some marvel mystery oil in before starting it. The quad started easy, ran well and had no issues.

I drove the quad around to warm it up. I didn't detect any crank case pressure when I undid the oil filler. However, it seemed to smoke more once it was warmed up. 

After running it, I parked it and put more Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinder while hot and it has been sitting that way since. I hope to find time soon to run it again and see if that helped at all.

While reading on here, I also found another thread about a smoking quad and they mentioned the possibility of oil leaking directly in to the exhaust pipe - maybe from a leaking head gasket or exhaust port, I can't remember which. I am wondering if that is the issue more than the rings. How could I determine which it was without ripping the engine apart?

If it smokes as bad after this next ride, I am going to just do a tear down of the top end and rebuild. While I am at it, I may pull the entire engine and go over the quad from top to bottom. This will allow me to get a better idea of the shape of every system on the quad and hopefully end with a great running quad that will last for a while. If I do that, I will start a new thread and document it all.

 

[Gwbarm]

From what you described it does sound like rings, have you done a compression check, do one without and then add oil to the cylinder and do another one and compare the 2.

[Mech]

Does the spark-plug have any sign of oil or burnt oil on it ?  That will indicate whether the exhaust valve is leaking straight down the exhaust, or whether the oil is getting down the inlet valve or up past the rings.

 

[unirambler]

Here is a pic of the spark plug. This is the same plug that was in it when I got it and I haven't cleaned it at all. With how much smoke is coming out the exhaust, I would think it would foul the plug fairly quickly if it was burning it in the cylinder but this things starts and runs well.

I should be receiving my compression tester today so hopefully I can check the compression in the next couple of days and let you know what I find.

[unirambler]

One question for you all. I have the compression tester now. How am I supposed to keep fuel from being pumped in to the cylinder when testing the compression or doesn't it matter if it is? Asking because I pulled the manual starter to clear out the marvel mystery oil and got a lot of oil sprayed everywhere but after that cleared out, I was still getting clouds of gas as the engine turned.Since the petcock doesn't have an off position, do I need to disconnect the fuel line or vacuum line or something?

[Gwbarm]

Shut off the gas, drain the carburetor, or run it till it dies. Then you can check the compression when it warmed up, when checking the compression make sure the throttle is wide open. You are right if its burning oil the plug should be shiny black.

[unirambler]

Unfortunately, the King Quad has a vacuum-driven petcock without an off position. I'll try disconnecting the vacuum line and see if that stops delivering fuel to the carb.

[Gwbarm]

That should work, or you could unhook the gas line and put it in cup and drain the carb, those vacuum petcocks can be kind of annoying sometimes, mine are always giving me trouble.