STM PowerSports Clutch Products & MAJOR POLARIS ISSUES

[KeysPropertyGuy]

 I feel credible information is important; and I personally have friends and family all over this country that share the same passion for Side by Side Adventures that I do. This article is for all of you and the " Newbee's " like myself that are just entering the SXS Market, and don't know which way to turn when it comes to fixing belt/clutch issues upon upgrading your tires on your Side by Side to handle a particular situation such as mud and swamp riding, that put high torque on your drivetrain.

In my case it is my 2021 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Premium that I just purchased. This is the product I will be speaking specifically about. This is a VERY expensive process make no mistake about it! I have over $2,500 in useless STM Powersports clutch parts, for my application and another $2,000 plus in tires and rims that I can't use, DON'T BE THIS GUY!

First, giving credit where due, Dustin (Tech at STM Powersports) was very willing and responsive when trying to make his companies product fix my issue. For those of you who are not interested in all the details. Their clutches are not designed to handle heavy mud and swamp applications period, and can't be tuned, as they advertise, to work, in my opinion. I personally have over a hundred hours of hands on testing to back that statement up. Upon further investigation, STM Powersports seems to be a snowmobile clutch manufacture out of Michigan that has morphed into building SXS clutches that apparently work on snowmobiles and sand dune SXS racing applications, they say. Can't see them being any different with other manufactures either as all that use a belt run on the same principle, but I can only speak for my Polaris Application.

My Problem- When upgrading my tire from the stock 30" tire to a 30" Aqua Torque Sand Mud Tire ( totally bad as* tire FYI ) that was EXACTLY what I needed for my mud, sand, and swamp riding here in Florida, I started burning up belts every 9 to 29 miles, which made no sense at all, so than began my research.

Solution (so I was told) - I need a " Performance Clutch " that is adjustable so that I can tune it for my particular situation/application.  Made Sense, and I am mechanically inclined, being in the mechanical field over 30 years, so I thought it would be fun and I could get to learn something new at the same time. Always good to keep learning.

My Goal - To save just one person who reads this a whole lot of money, time, and aggravation. I have spent well over a 100 hrs of personal tuning and testing with guidance from Dustin from STM PowerSports, watching all their tuning video's, and using some common sense once I understood the principle of how the clutch functioned, and what adjustments effected speed, rpm, etc. etc. etc. to no resolve.

My Process - Doing some quick " Google " research " apparently I should of done a hell of a lot more, I was guided to Vivid Racing who sold me this STM PowerSports mess. They apparently are one of STM PowerSports product distributors.  When I ordered this product I was EXTREMELY detailed on what I needed due to my current riding conditions, the exact make, year, and model of my Kart, my weight, and the weight, make, and size of the tire I was replacing my stock tires with. The sales rep confirmed my needs, and assured me that a STM PowerSports Clutch was what I needed, to the tune of over $2,500. As soon as I started having issues though, my Vivid Racing sales rep could not be reached anymore, would never return any of my calls, and apparently after a week of this, no longer worked there, ie I was S.O.L.

Pulling out my parts packaging I was able to find the # of the manufacture and found Dustin, a Technical Support Advisor for the Company, that also raced SXS. Any of you that want the real detailed information on the exact tuning that was done and detailed information for your own knowledge, please leave me your # and I would be happy to share all of that with you.

To make a long story a little shorter, after over a month and a half of phone calls to STM PowerSports, changing clutch weights and position on the clutch arms, primary and secondary clutch springs, and doing test runs after every single adjustment and still smokin my belts; Dustin at STM Powersports was convinced there was something wrong with my 2021 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Premium. Even though it was brand new and only had 279 miles on it at the time.

He said the transmission had to be out of alignment with the motor or something had to be binding in the transmission or drive-train.  Taking his advise, and that out of the equation, I spent over $300 on a professional motor transmission alignment tool, only to re confirm that everything was spot on. I again followed his directions on his " Binding Drive-Train theory and jacked everything off the ground ( another $150 in jackstands ) just to find out that everything spun freely, nothing was binding, and nothing seemed out of order there either.

I also need to add, that during this testing " Process " I had gone thru 7 belts at approx $150 bucks a piece. I had previously installed a Razorback Belt Temp Sensor on my Kart so with every adjustment I could watch my belt temps and compare everything. The only thing I didn't know at the time (and guess it is kind of relative to your riding area, and temperature of where you are riding) is that normal temps are anywhere between 130 and 180 when really pushing it, on average for my Kart when it is running right. What I can tell you is, when it's not, at 250 Degrees your belt starts so de-laminate, 260 pieces come off, and 275 it blows up into a thousand pieces like popcorn. With this STM PowerSports clutch I could not drive down a hard packed sand road with my kart in 2 wheel low or high 4 wheel low or high for more then 9 miles before the belt temps would start hitting 250, so something was wrong; and all through this process it was never the STM  Powersports Clutch, it was my 2021 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Premium.

Even after all my testing, per his direction, Dustin from STM PowerSports was still convinced it was my Kart, and not his companies product. He advised me to put all my stock parts back on, run it another time, and then get back to him.

I again agreed, but told him that the whole reason that I purchased his companies product in the first place, was that I didn't want to run my stock tires and I already knew that my stock clutch set up can't handle my new tires for some reason??? or I wouldn't have spent over $2,500 dollars buying a new STM Powersports clutch from his company. I did as he requested and here are the results.

Conclusion - My concern, I was leaving to do some serious riding on the Hatfield McCoy Trail System in West Virginia the following week. I was now praying to God that something would give! I was out of time to test his theories that were obviously just guesses at this point. My 2021 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Premium can't keep a drive-belt on it that can last 19 miles, at times, say nothing of the hundreds of miles that I was looking forward to be driving in West Virginia.

I stripped off all STM Powersports Clutch parts, put on yet another new drive-belt, installed my stock clutches an tires, and took it for one last test run at River Ranch before loading it in the trailer to head to West Virginia. As I didn't have much time and honestly at this point, I was ready to call everything off. With all the original stock set up back on, I put it to the test, with my fingers and toes crossed (translates to praying my butt off) I put the hammer down for my last afternoon of testing I had left.

I hit every mud hole, water hole, river, and small lake that I could find. If you have ever been to River Ranch in Florida you will know I didn't have to look far. I clocked ten miles, interesting, 20 miles, getting nervous now, 30 miles, it's going to blow any time now for sure, 40 miles???, now i'm kinda dumb founded! At 49 miles the belt temps were still only running 167 degrees tops, which I never had seen before. As everything was already paid and ready for West Virginia, I said the worst that could happen, is I would have to rent a Kart for the week and listen to more bashing from my friends. 

Now for the BIG test. To the Appalachian Mountains where there are some real mountains and challenging situations, for real! 

Results - In 6 Days I put on an additional 649 Miles, hard miles on my 2021 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Premium " just one belt " that already had 49 miles on it when I started, with not a lick of problems. The belt temperature never hit 200 degrees even after long crazy hill climbs. So, if your wondering why I am calling this product " BS " for the type of riding conditions I purchased it for, well all I can tell you is, it isn't my driving style, or an issue with my New Polaris RZR XP 1000 Premium, or the belt that I was consistently running (which Dustin Recommended I run). In my opinion it's with a STM PowerSports, a Michigan Company that is " Marketing " and " Selling "  a clutch product that they have not done any proper R & D on for the application they sold it to me for, or are Marketing/Selling it to everyone else who also has Mud/Swamp riding needs. They have no problem taking your money, and your stuck with it once you purchase  it, just so ya know.

To my friends an all the Newbee's like me out there, I wish I could finish this article with a solution for y'all, but for now I am out of money, time, and patience to go through this process again. I have heard rumors that Duraclutch was designed by guys that are Mud Boggers and do swap riding as well as R&D their product for this application??? If there is anyone out there that reads this and has found a " Tested " solution to my problem I would love to hear about it. The Aqua Torque Tires I purchased are an truly amazing product, they apparently just weigh more then the stock tires and STM Powersports has no business selling their product to people that mud and swamp ride in" high torque " situations. They should be letting the public know that OR " Man UP " and spend the time, money, and do the right thing, and test an develop a product that actually works for the application they are selling it for, Before they sell it.  They seem to have no problem bragging that their product is made in America, while my Chinese Stock Polaris Clutch clearly out preforms their product for stock application needs, and a quarter of the cost! 

[Ulfthednar]

Heh. reminds me of something. Now, I am "NEW" to atvs and particularly the CVT tranny and belt systems. (intriguing and ingenious, actually).

I am not really new to Belt drive primaries on hold harleys.

"way back in the day" I had this FAF 73 Shovelhead (it would eat most crotch rockets) but I kept ripping apart primary belts.

Flash forward a few decades and running a belt drive on my not so fast 80 Shovelhead.

 

Similar issues, critical alignments and so forth.

This time though, I studied up on how belts act and while doing so, figured out why I couldn't keep a belt on my 73 Shovel (covered) but my 80 I have ABUSED to death. (Picture an open belt, drag piped 80/80 Shovelhead flat tracking gravel roads at 40 to 60 mph). That belt has chewed rocks, sand, gravel, salt, small mammals and a boot lace once or twice the pulley are beat and pitted and it's probably time to get a whole new set up.

the belt is actually the same company (different name though) as my first belt drive.

 

My discovery?

Drive belts don't do well with heat.

My 73, thinking I knew what I was doing, I'd tension that sucker like a v type fan belt . .

My 80? I set that sucker so I can twist it almost over (with straight alignment, which is IMPORTANT for tracking on pulleys with no sides flanges) and that belt has held up through way more than I put the first one through.

Drive belts CONTRACT when they get hot . . they don't expand like most objects.

the material in them contracts and tightens up on the pulleys when they get hot. The don't loosen up and stretch.

When my 80/80 gets nice and warm, my belt is snug, with a little flex to it, cold, I can roll it 90 degrees. But it never gets hot.

The belt on my CVT while different in shape, sure looks, smells and feels like the same or similar compound as my BDL drive belts (formerly Primo/Rivera) . . 

Might be the issue there . . their belt was a hair too short for your machine, causing it to over heat . . .

 

Just a thought.

 

[Mech]

"I feel credible information is important; ".  And so do I, and in fairness to the makers of the clutch you are bagging, I think it's important to point out a few things.

First off, your theory and that story doesn't make sense.. For a start, mud does not use a lot of torque, quite the opposite. Sand puts big loads on your motor, horsepower and torque, but mud by virtue of it's softness and slipperiness can't use too much of either. If your new tires are getting so much grip now that there's no wheelspin and so you are applying more power, well that's one thing, but I'll bet that it's no more power than you'd get/use on a good hard surface. If the belts are failing now because you are getting grip in the mud, then the belts would have been failing when you got good grip on hard surfaces before.

Secondly, you say the problems started after you changed the tyres/wheels, not after you'd changed the clutch.. You changed the clutch to try and remedy the problem the wheels had caused. How can you now claim it's caused by the aftermarket clutch ?

Thirdly, you fixed the problem again by changing everything back to stock.. including the wheels. That doesn't prove it was the aftermarket clutch causing the problem, and it doesn't prove that it was the wheels either. It's inconclusive.

In the interests of credibility, I think you need to be more methodical and change one component at a time before blaming it on that clutch.

You've already tried the standard clutch with aftermarket wheels and the belt failed, how about trying that aftermarket clutch with the standard wheels and see if the belts fail in nine miles. If the clutch, and the belts survive, then put your aftermarket wheels on and see how things go... In the interests of credibility. 

To my mind there are a couple of possibilities causing your problem here, and neither of them are the aftermarket clutch, which was meant to be the cure for the problem, but didn't fix it... One is that you have changed the diameter of the wheels, and the other is that the belts need bedding in before using them hard. Did you change the diameter of the tyres ? Changing the diameter of the wheels could cause the belt pulleys to be operating too near the extreme range of their variability. They are designed to operate through a certain rev range, and when the bike is in it's power range the pulleys should be near the center of their diameter range, and at the low revs, and high revs, when the torque is less, they are meant to be using a small pulley and a large pulley. Small diameter pulleys can't handle as much power as large pulleys, so, gearing it so it's using the power when both pulleys are the same diameter will help transmit power better. Over gearing it and putting a lot of power through a small pulley will tend to promote belt slip. 

And, those belts do need running in.. the manuals say so.. 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Mech

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Good morning Mech and thank you for your input. Spending more than half my life in the mechanical industry, I am 56 now, I like to feel while one can always learn, the reason for my post, I have learned a few things also. 

To give ya an update, since my post I put my stock equipment back on it, took my Kart to Harfield an McCoy trail system in West Virginia (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED) and up over 700 miles in 7 days climbing serious mountains and still on the same belt.

To answer some of your questions, the tires are the exact same size only heavier. STM had all the details of what I was looking for and to do. I will be the first to admit I am not a clutch expert, that's why I went to one, I  thought. My only beef is with people who represent something that isn't necessarily accurate, but we are past that and I prefer to look for solutions to a problem rather then to be part of it.

Not sure where you currently ride but the mud I am referring to is the type that you sink 3 inches into and it will take your boot off before you can pull it out. When your 30 inch tire is stuck in that your done. You Don't keep your tires rotating an stop its over, like my pic.

 

Where I ride now ( River Ranch Central Florida on 57,000 acres ) has a ton of sugar sand, and you are correct, when that gets wet it acts the same way. In that pick we had to hand dig around the cart and took 1 kart with 4500 pd winch pulling sideways from the top of my cage to hold my left side out while another Kart was winchin me forward while my 4500 pd winch was pulling from a tree also. That's the kind of stuck we all try to avoid. 

Maybe you didn't catch the part when I mentioned my stock set up couldn't handle my tires. The only thing that changed in this whole scenario is I went to a heavier much more aggressive tire. After I did weeks of testing with STM tech he was convinced it was the Kart not his product. I spent hundreds of dollars purchasing alignment equipment etc. Only to find out that everything was spot on.

We are not talking about some beat up Kart here my $25,000 Kart had 217 miles on when I started this venture. To answer your second question, you are correct I specifically purchased that clutch based on STMs sales representatives knowledge. Tires and rims are the same size only difference is tires are heavier and more aggressive. Which my stock set up proved not to be able to handle. Hence spending another $1,800 to no resolve. After all my testing the STM tech admitted that he had never encountered this issue an also had never riddin in my conditions and said it had to be my Kart. Hatfield McCoy more then proved it isn't my Kart. 

Why would I even think of putting the STM product back on with my stock setup when the whole purpose of the purchase was to be able to use my new tires?  But to answer that question, I did do that,  and to comment on ULFTHEDNAR's post too he is correct, heat is a KILLER, interestingly enough I have installed a Razarback Belt Temp Gauge on my rig and can tell you that at 230 degrees your belt starts slipping 250 pieces start coming off and 270 it blows into million little pieces. Experienced this 4 times in less then 100 miles. 

On the same level surface with the stock tires back on it. The stock setup ran 20 degrees cooler then the STM clutch period. I could not keep the belt under 200 degrees with the STM product and their recommended tunes and we tried dozens to make this work. When running up 200 yard grades in WV that you thought you were going to roll over backwards my belt temp barely hit 180 and went back down to the 160's.

Touching on your third point you are correct there as I understand pulley theory also and was actually sending Dustin (STM Tech) pictures of both pulleys as we were testing so he could evaluate that also. The one thing I liked about the product was that I could actually get my rpms back to where they belonged to stay in the power band, but there is a big difference between desert dune racing where your always spinning at high speeds and flying and Crawling through stuff a 5 mph not 50.

Thanks again for your time. I was really hoping that Dustin an I could nail the step up as it would of been another great marketing tool for them also but that wasn't the case and it wasn't till after all this that I found out that the largest sxs dealer in Florida stopped carrying their products for the same reason. My bad should of done more research. At this point just hoping that someone has had the same issues as myself and found a solution other then using gear reduction as yes the tires are heavier and more aggressive but I am not running 38s on it just stock size tires.

 

 

[Mech]

Yeah well a million is a lot of pieces of belt.

I still think if you want to be absolutely sure it is the new clutch causing your problems (credibility) then you need to swap/test one part at a time.. that's the scientific/logical way. That's the way we mechanics have to do it.. We have to be able to demonstrate our reasoning was sound. You had the problem before you changed clutches. The problem arose after you'd changed tyres you say. Changing clutches didn't cure the problem, and it wasn't the cause of the problem. It's a pity that you are disappointing the new clutch didn't cure the pre-existing problem as you'd hoped, but I don't think it justifies bagging the new clutch.

Consider this.. If the old tyres lack of traction in the mud was what was saving your belts from destruction, and enhanced grip in the mud with the new tyres alone was what was causing them to fail in only nine miles, if you are correct and it was in fact traction alone causing the belt failures, then the belts would have destroyed themselves  driving on good surfaces where the original tyres were getting traction. That's logic.

You were destroying belts in as little as nine miles.. Here's what the manual has to say about that. Perhaps some of the problems are not in fact the new clutch setup, or the new tyres.

"A proper break-in of the clutches and drive belt will
ensure a longer life and better performance. Break in the
clutches and drive belt by operating at slower speeds
during the 10 hours as recommended (see Chapter 3 –
Engine Break-In Period, page 3.32 for break-in
example). Avoid aggressive acceleration and high speed
operation during the break-in period. After installation of
a new drive belt, break-in new drive belts by operating at
slower speeds during the break-in period ~50 miles.
Carry only light loads. Avoid aggressive acceleration,
high speed operation, and extended time at a specific
RPM during the break-in period. In addition, when
operating in sand/dune environments, avoid extended
low speed operation at high throttle.".

And again..

"PVT Break-In (Drive Belt / Clutches)
A proper break-in of the clutches and drive belt will
ensure a longer life and better performance. Break in the
clutches and drive belt by operating at slower speeds
during the 10 hour break-in period as recommended. Pull only light loads. Avoid aggressive
acceleration and high speed operation during the break-
in period.".

I think you are drawing a very long bow trying to blame all your belt problems on the new clutch, and I think if you want to present a creditable justification for bad mouthing them you need to prove it is the clutch alone by eliminating the new tyres and your driving techniques as possible causes. You need to change one factor at a time and demonstrate that that one factor does, and only it does, cause the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Mech

[johniii]

How do you break in the belt when you can only go 9 miles before belts destroyed? 

[Mech]

Read the manual John..

[Ulfthednar]

1 hour ago, johniii said:

How do you break in the belt when you can only go 9 miles before belts destroyed? 

roll it over by hand?

[Mech]

Looks like there's no answer to my logic... The thread was just an unjustified potshot because he was disappointed with his purchase.

If Keys was a long time member here, and had done a bit of this "very aggressive trail riding", and wasn't a self confessed "newbie", then perhaps his post and experience would have a bit of credibility..  As it is, being as he joined up just to bad mouth a piece of equipment he wasn't satisfied with, unfairly, and can't prove the clutch in question was the culprit in his problems, then I really can't see any credibility in it. Quite the opposite.

I also see that he joined up to several other sites on the same day, and posted the same bit of malice.  It all just looks to me like mischief.

I'm betting that if someone started slagging him off all around the web because they decided, in hindsight, that they weren't happy with something he'd sold them, he wouldn't like it. I doubt the manufacturers would like this thread either.

I think that the manufacturers (who I think are sponsors here) should know about this and be given the opportunity to respond to these unfair and slanderous attacks, or the thread deleted..  Fair's fair..  This is not.  

[Mech]

And if that picture of them all standing around in their slippers is anything to go by, his idea of "aggressive trail riding", and mud that will rip your boots off, is a bit of a joke.

My sons would have had that out of that mud hole in two minutes, If they'd ever managed to get parked in it like that, when they were twelve years old !!  No winch required.. 

[Ulfthednar]

well, you know if they tilt the camera to make it look harsher . . 

[Mech]

They should have splattered a bit of mud on that right hand wheel.. 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Hey Mech forgot to hit send on my reply to your questions so I apologize, 

   Forgot to add that in my reply to you, yes (per STM Tech) with each belt change I did put to heat cycles on every belt before I started running them hard. By heat cycle, I specifically mean, ran my Kart down my main grade road for a mile varying speeds and then letting the belt completely cool down and then doing it again. I think I am a little lost on what you mean by systematically changing one part at a time? There was never an issue with my Kart before I put my 30" Aqua Torque Tires on. My Kart had 200 Miles on it and I was sick of my buddies winching me out of the mud ( buddy abuse ) due to my stock tires.  My bad if you did not get that from my initial details and request for assistance. All the other information was the rabbit trail I was led down during my STM Clutch testing. Yes I did also do exactly what you suggested also ( put everything back to original, ie stock clutches and tires ) and went to Hatfield McCoy Trails in West Virginia and put over 700 Miles of hard trail riding on JUST ONE BELT, which is still on it, with no overheating issues or belt breakage at all. If you run STM products on your rig and they work great, God Bless Ya! I was sold a product by them that they said would work perfectly and clearly doesn't. They have no interest in helping me further or making good on it, fine, I am a big boy.  I just don't want to see another person who does my type of riding get sucked into the same trap, plain and simple. I am over it, now just really hoping to find someone who does aggressive mud riding and is using an aftermarket clutch set up that they are happy with that's all. 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Love y'all's humor, I can actually laugh myself after the fact myself. Really not funny when you are in the moment though for sure. Good thing all this riding is done on 57,000 acres of private land for owners as a part of an association with thousands of members that ride there.; and everyone is always helping everyone out. Good ol boy network!  Really just looking for someone who has used an aftermarket clutch with success and not having to use gear reduction as I am just running stock size tires. Someone mentioned Dura Clutch as the engineers owners etc I guess helped design the first Polaris SXS rigs but he was a salesman also and when I asked him if he had personal experience himself the answer was " It was just what I have been told " not going there again.

[Mech]

Your comments Key were/are scurrilous.. end of story. There was never any " request for assistance", it was malice all the way.

"There was never an issue with my Kart before I put my 30" Aqua Torque Tires on.".  That's an example of changing one thing, and the one and only thing that caused the problem. Despite your saying they are the same stock size tyres, I don't think they are. Everything I read says they have 29 inch tyres.

Your riding look very average to me Keys, or even rather boring. You bought a machine with well known and acknowledged limitations in regards the belt drive. Then you modified things, and as far as I can tell, drive it poorly, don't do the research and think you can overcome the well known limitations by throwing money at it. Then you have the appalling cheek to say it's all STM's fault..  You say they should "MAN UP", and admit their part in your problems.  Yeah right..

Good luck with the smear campaign..  But , in the interest of credibility, how about fessing up about just how many new accounts you started up to wage this campaign.  Because that's what I really find offensive.

I'm a mechanic and I wouldn't want some disgruntled customer of mine doing what you do, and I bet that you wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of such behavior either..  Man up Keys, wear the losses, and in the future, do your research, and "let the buyer beware".

 

[davefrombc]

Just my 2 cents worth, but the picture he shows of the stuck  Polaris is hilarious to anyone who  has driven  4x4s / ridden ATVs in the gumbo we have in north central Bc and farther north,  Those people standing around the  ATV would have about 20  pounds of mud on each foot . Where they are looks more like a fine sand than mud.   Since that appears to have an open differential  in front (  back  also?) it is at best 3 wheel drive since if one tire loses traction on front there is no more pull there .  If the rear diff is also open the same goes for there. I would hazard a guess that if the machine had locking differentials front and back it would easily have handled that hole.  Sorry , but that ground doesn't look like it is slippery at all; wet and soft , maybe , but not really a challenge to  all wheel  drive or on demand 4x4 with at least a locked or locking rear differential.  As far as the belt shredding goes, I strongly suspect it is the driver or mechanic's fault far more than the clutch set manufacturer's.   The posts and claims  by Keys  has that familiar farm  smell to me.

 

[Mech]

If that machine had been "scooting along", it would have bounced right through that little hole..  Scooting along is what it's made for.

 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Good morning Mech and all,

Mech as ya still seem to think I am doggin STM an y'alls other comments about " easy Riding " let's take your earier suggestion and put this to rest once an for all, and I know how to do exactly that.

First, if you read my comments above that pic you would of seen that my true goal was to actually have Dustin an I figure this out as it would give him an his company another great tool to use for their sales and I would achieve my goal also. I actually invited Dustin to come out an visit and no comment was ever made.

What I have found in sales over the years, and I have represented manufacturers personally, is a good majority or companies are quick to sell ( which is how I feel ) but when there is not an easy fix, it's always something wrong with everything else,  but there product.

Mech I think you an I can put this to bed easily and it's the perfect time of year to do it as they (STM) are located in Michigan an they are probably in between seasons as I don't believe they are racing sleds just yet.

I  also believe, anyone else please feel free to comment too. If you don't have a problem running your chops ya better be ready to put your money where your mouth is!

So Mech, thats what I am going to do. These are my ground rules,  anyone please comment if they think I am being slanted.

In my first thread,when laying out my issues I maintained that I was convinced to buy a product that wasn't made for what they knew it was going to be used for period.

MECH feels I am not giving the manufacturer a fair shake, fair enough. As I feel that I have a decent repro with Dustin ( STM Tech and racer himself)  here is what I am going to propose to them an ya'll will see a copy of the email I send.

As I previously mentioned, I just got done putting over 700 miles on the belt that's on my rig still now in the mountains of West Virginia.  So yes I am still standing on the fact that my rig, and driving style are just fine and it's the STM clutch, so here we go.

I am going to invite Dustin out on an all expenses paid trip to personally tune my clutch. Just in case that in the month I spent trying everything he tod me to do, I missed something. He has or had all the results of those tests. If he doesn't I still do.

This is how the test will go, so everyone know exactly what to expect. We first will put a new belt on the rig. I still run the kind " Timpkin " that Dustin recommended. We will break the belt in any way he wants. We will put as many miles on the stock setup that he wants. in my driving conditions, to satisfy his mind that in the stock setup everything is as it should be. I have a Razorback Belt Temp Sensor on it so we will know pretty quick if it's not.

Once completed, we will put another Brand New Belt on ( as we are doing apples for apples here ) and do nothing else but change the tires and put his clutch on it that he can tune as he sees fit ( the reason I purchased it in the first place ) and go back at it.

I AM WILLING TO PAY all his expenses to and from an feed him good while he's here and even pay him his weeks lot salary if he can make his product work going through the exact same scenario. 

Reading other threads that say I should be getting a 1000 miles out of my belt and me just putting 700 on mine personally I guess that is what I should expect, But I am going to cut STM a break here too. If Dustin can give me JUST 350 miles one one belt I will be happy and we can call it a day. 

I personally don't think STM can, period!  IF THEY CAN'T they are going to have to agree to the same ( ie they reimburse me for all my expenses,belts an all and pay me Dustin's Salary for the week for wasting my time.

FYI, for all concerned, bsck in the day that was daily business for me, when people used to challenge me on the product I represented for my manufacturer. The difference,  I believed in, an knew exactly what my company's product would and wouldn't do and I wouldn't lead people just for a sale an say sorry when things didn't work out.

Stay tuned Mech and I guess we'll see just how much they believe in what they sell.

I personally hope they do, as Dustin seems like a real cool guy and win or loss I am sure we will have a BLAST

If that isn't giving them a fair shake I don't know what is?  As I am not asking them to do anything I haven't personally done myself.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mech]

Lol.. You seem to missing the point entirely Keys, several points.

First off though, are you going to tell people how many sites you joined up to just for the specific purpose of slagging off this company ? I think that people would be interested in that. I think that says a lot about you, and your sincerity and credibility as a person even though it's got nothing to do with  your mechanical or driving ability. If as you claim, that honesty and credibility and all the rest of the bullshit you claim,  are so important to you, then be honest, with us, and with yourself. Then I might start to be interested, then I might believe some of what you have to say. 

You still think you can change clutch, tyres and belt all at one time, and prove it's their clutch. That's not good science. Kids at school know that.

You still think that by fitting a new clutch that you can make a belt drive stand up to abuse that the manufacturers are happy to admit is a weak point. You seem to think that STM should be responsible for the whole design of the buggy you have bought. You even seem to think STM should be responsible for your incompetence. I think you need to take a good long look at yourself here Keys.

If you keep driving like a nanna that belt is always going to be vulnerable. In your other scurrilous posts ( you do know what scurrilous means don't you),  you say you are a guy that likes to "scoot along". But it's obvious to every one here, and no doubt to Dustin, that you don't know what you are doing, talking about, or how to drive that buggy.  

Use the buggy for what it's designed for, as it was designed. Learn to drive. Realize that it's you causing the problems here, and stop digging yourself into a bigger hole, literally and figuratively. And above all Keys, stop trying to convince me that you know what you are talking about and that you are a sincere guy.. It's like you say.. DON'T BE THIS GUY. I wouldn't be you for all the tea in China. I wouldn't even stand close to you.

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Mech, seems like your the one doin allot of rambling at this point. If the product they sold me can do what they say it does who wouldn't want a free trip to Florida to play for a week on someone else's dime especially this time of year, when ya live in Michigan. Heck I loved doing it. 

Why are you concerned, the other guys in our thread say where I ride is a walk in the park an my driving skills need help. Starting to sound like you know something that I don't?

I'm not scared to put my money where my mouth is and obviously I feel confident enough about my driving and mechanical abilities to throw a couple more K on the line if I'm wrong. Told ya pal, I don't think so, so you and I will find out what's what an who's who's very soon is my guess.

Yes you are right I did share my thoughts on a few sights as when I was a young kid riding I worked very hard for very little money and something like this would have crushed me. I would hate to have that happen to any other kid. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth, so your darn right I am going to tell people to make sure to do extra research.

If they can hook me up and all works out well they will also have my approval to use this as a testimony to their dedication to the products they manufacture which I am sure will help out their sales emmencly.

WIN WIN

[Mech]

Some people just can't be helped Keys..  They know it and I know it. I'll be very surprised if they waste any more of their time trying to satisfy your unreasonable expectations.

Keep digging though..

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Mech, poor answer myfriend, all people can be helped if people want to take the time. I have been in the people business all my life. It's easy to be a stand up guy when everything is going well, it's when the chips are down that you really find out what a person or companies character is made of.  It sounds to me like you either have personal vested interest in this product? or are starting to make up lame excuses for someone who does. If STM was a large corporation I would actually probably agree with you, but as I am sure you know, this is a small family owned business, actually like the two companies that I used to represent.  When I hear statements like your last one, especially after the offer that is being presented, it really comes down to two things because I have taken all the money for them off the table, if they can do what they have no problem bragging about and selling me.  A. They Can't period and they know it up front, so your right, they will make a comment just like you did or not respond at all. B. They don't care enough about their product to at least give it a try, even knowing that every chance to test and learn is valuable, especially when they find someone is willing to work with them for a common goal.

Either of these would clearly tell me why the Largest Side By Side Deal In Florida stopped carrying an supporting their product and went to Dura Clutch.  STM has a good tech, " Dustin " I feel he is a very knowledgeable person no matter what the outcome.  I told him flat out I totally understood what's up. He didn't sell me the Clutch, it's not his fault, I am pretty certain he doesn't handle the companies Vendor Accounts or Advertising, and that is where the blame lies.  I also feel that if I could get him here for a week, even if it ended up being on my dime, it would be a Win Win for everyone involved and I would be good with that.  If it turned out to be on their dime, lets face it, for a very small investment in the big scheme of things, I am sure that Dustin would come back with a pile of knowledge that would help STM design another clutch that could make them huge bucks in return. They actually have the opportunity to break into another huge market with the help of someone that has the same goal in mind. Ya got to think out of the box brother.

[Mech]

I'm not your friend or brother Keys.

I've got no vested interests at all.

Every belt drive machine on the market stipulate their limits.

There's no such thing as an idiot proof machine.

Some people just can't accept that they have made a mistake, and/or, are dealing with things they don't understand.

If you want a buggy with a rock solid bulletproof transmission then buy one. You should stop trying to make a sow's ear into a silk purse and blaming other people when the money falls straight through.

I don't really care about your mechanical ineptitude Keys, or your inability to understand simple physics, or your  lack of driving skills, what does concern me is your underhand way of trying to explain them away.

If you want advice about your problem, ask, if you want advice about driving that buggy, ask.. There are plenty of experienced and competent people in here and the other sites that would be happy to help you with those.. if you are willing to listen.

I think ego's getting in the way here Keys and that you are never going to be able to accept the reality of the situation though, so I doubt anyone is going to be able to help you despite any amount of good will on their part.

There really are limits to what can be done to and with the machine, or for you as things stand.

 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

As I promised here is a copy of the email I just sent to Dustin at STM.  I will keep y'all informed of my progress. Come on Mech don't be a hater!  I see an opportunity to turn a problem into a success story. Otherwise I would not invest the time. If you don't want to consider me a friend or whatever that is fine. I happen to think all people have value and something good to offer no matter what the circumstance. You got to stop being apart of the problem and be apart of the solution, and that doesn't mean writing people off. I happen to believe there is one and I know if I get a chance to work with Dustin we can probably find one that will help us both out. Doesn't that make sense?

[Mech]

And just for the record..  Yes there are things I know that you don't, hard though that may be for you to swallow.

I was riding a 650 BSA when you were one year old. I was overhauling motorbikes for myself and pay about the time you were getting pubic hair.

I've ridden two wheels and four over every sort of terrain except ice and snow, thousands upon thousands of hours. I know vehicles, traction, balance and the outdoors like you are never going to. To me it's a way of life, not a weekend adventure.

I'm a mechanic, a self employed mechanic till a few years ago, in the country, with a regular clientele. Even if it wasn't my personal choice since I was twenty-one, I've had to be honest. I've been dealing with and helping people with their vehicle problems and needs, and because I'm trusted, their financial, personal, relationship and spiritual needs, for scores of years.  I saw straight through you Keys immediately.

I'm a straight speaker and recognise BS when I see it, and I call it. You've been called.

 

[Mech]

I don't hate anyone Keys. I'm not loyal to any person either.

I realised a longtime ago that it's the principles that are important, and that anyone can have a bad day and do something unworthy.

I'm loyal to and support good principles wherever I find them, whoever I find them in, and I decry poor behavior and attitudes even in my friends.

I have integrity Keys.. wholeness..  it makes being honest easy.

Know yourself Keys.. Make sure you are the person you would like to be.

 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Interesting, so help me out with the math here. I just turned 56 and have been riding since I was 8 so I guess we do have something in common. So you are pushing 70? There is no BS here Mech. What you are not used to, which is ok, is dealing with someone that doesn't roll over when people try to be little them and put them down.  Forum's are designed to assist " NEW BEE's " and I personally have no problem admitting when I don't know something. As I mentioned earlier, I am in the people business, and realize the value of people's knowledge and have been blessed with having many issues solved by reaching out and finding people that have had similar issues and love to help. I don't have any problem dealing with nay sayers as in the Sales World every NO is just one step closer to the yes I am looking for.  How we got from my belt clutch issues to you being concerned with the age I reached puberty I will never know, but obviously you think I am allot younger then I am. As an FYI I started my first two businesses when I was in 4th grade. My father (rest his sole) said if I wanted a motorcycle I was going to have to get a job so I got a paper route full time getting up every morning at 3:30 am, Living in Vermont, and had a second job mowing my neighborhood lawns in he summer and shoveling their driveways in the winter. I guess we both have something else in common there too. You have a GREAT NIGHT!

[Mech]

Ha..I just realised as I was walking down to the letterbox that I'd missed a decade in my calculations.. I was restoring, customising and hotting up bikes for other people when you were just getting pubic hair.. I was over hauling bikes for myself and my friends when you were in junior school.

Yeah I knew how old you were Keys.. this is the internet...

 

[Mech]

I didn't see you come in here asking about your belt problems Keys.. If I had I might have had a bit more advice or suggestions for you. You signed up to slag STM off..

Now my only advice is grow up, accept responsibility for your decisions and actions.

 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Lol yea just two ol guys, actually think we both have similar tranes of thoughts just different approaches which is cool. I have no problem accepting responsibility for my actions but I really do feel that with a little more insight I really can achieve my goal and do a good thing for STM too. You may be correct, they may not be interested, God willing that won't be the case. Dustin is a smart guy for sure but for this he needs to be hands on at this point. Sounds like you have had allot more sxs experience then I which is nice. I understand the theory of operation I just don't have the hands on tuning time to put it to practical use. Dustin admitted he hasn't done this type of riding but he's a racer and has that blood. I am sure you know what I'm talking about. I just need to get him in the seat so he can actually feel what's up then he will be able to apply his years of knowledge to probably do in a few days what I couldn't do in a month. That's what I am banking on. All kidding aside thanks for your input on a few trains of thought as I can read between the lines and will keep ya up to date. Maybe we both will learn something that we can pass down to the young bucks lol.