STM PowerSports Clutch Products & MAJOR POLARIS ISSUES

[Mech]

No Keys, I've had practically nothing to do with side by sides, I've driven a few, and driven a few belt drives. I am though well trained in mechanicing, and knowledgeable about how things work.

I know practically nothing about your particular design of belt drive but I have worked on belt drives.  I do know the basis of their operation, about the balance between revs at the front, and torque at the back. I also know they do not take much abuse.

I  know that those belt drives can be temperamental, need setting up properly, and are not necessarily intuitive in their operation or adjustments.

My suspicion is that you have set off down the wrong path, ignored or not understood what you have been told regarding the new kit, made adjustment after adjustment making your problems worse not better. That and not bedding in your belts, and probably, by the things you say, and that photo, a bad understanding of how to drive a belt drive, or not driving to the requirements of the machine. It's equally obvious that you haven't read the owners manual, or have chosen to ignore it, or you'd know that they say to do a lot more than two one mile runs to bed the belt in..  just for starters.

How you could get stuck in that small hole to start with, and then not be able to get out, defies belief, but there you go, you did it. It makes a mockery of your supposed "aggressive trail riding". If you'd been going even slightly briskly, as the machine is designed to do, that buggy should have just bounced straight through that puddle.

No matter. At the end of the day you didn't do the research, bought a machine that was obviously not suitable for you, then didn't do more research and bought bits that were never going to overcome your and the vehicles inherent failings, and now are trying to blame it all on STM. You might as well try and blame it all on Polaris.

As I said, some people just can't be helped, because they don't want to hear.

Keep believing that you know better than the people that design and make these machines and parts. Keep on having unrealistic expectations. Keep blaming it all on STM.

 

 

 

I

[Mech]

And no Keys, we do not have similar trains of thought. I really do not think that with a little more insights you are going to make your buggy into something it's not.  I've trained apprentices, and my sons. They listened and took advice. and they are all good mechanics. They wouldn't have been in the paper for being fully qualified before turning twenty-one, or been apprentice of the year, by following advice from someone like you. Best you stick to your game, and leave the teaching to those that know about mechanics.

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Good morning Mech, fair statements, but in fact, while not owning on personally my best friend in Vermont back in 2011 had a 900 rzr an loved it. That is why I chose polaris. I test drove Can Am, put 800 miles on a New Honda Talon in the jungles of Costa Rica chasing a Honda CR 250 all day, which was AWESOME and still feel that I loved the ride handling and the way you sit an drivers view BEST period. I don't just drop 30k on anything without studying. Just trying not to write books here. Yes  could gave bought the Honda and eliminated the belt issue all together. They are shaft drive but have very noisy gear cases in my opinion and I didn't like that.

As far as breaking in belts, I did read the manual and actually was told by STM that much time wasn't needed. Short heat cycles were the key. I agree with them and have over 750 Miles on my current belt. 

As far as getting stuck without writing a book. You are correct of I would have been able to keep going without taking out the guy in front of me for stopping short I wouldn't have got stuck, wasn't the case. 

Ever wonder why when I read the comments about my driving ability my response is just come on down and ride. Mech I am just a big kid and the peeps I ride all the time with are 15 to 25 years younger then me. I have spend my whole younger life tearing up the mountains of Vermont summer an winter on motorcycles, quads, an snowmobiles. I have a little seat time too a just chose not to brag about my abilitys as thatvonly alginate you from people and that's not my goal here. With you or anyone else

I too started out my young career as a mechanic and spent half my life in it. I just got sick of coming home smelling like a gas can all the time so chose to switch my profession that all. You never stop being a mechanic. I just do it for my personal stuff now, time permitting.

My buggy is fine, everything is aligned perfectly as I bought the diagnostic tools and checked it myself, and it runs and drives fine with the complete stock setup as polaris designed it to do.

In Short I need to find a cluch set up, or preferably have Dustin teach me how to correctly tune this one, so I can run my after market tires that work amazing  for this type of riding. That is what I really want to do. Have a Great Day!

 

[Mech]

I was reading up last night Keys and people do seem to say that STM are helpful, and do stand by their products. People that have had trouble, not all but some,  have been given assistance, have been given extra parts to try, have had superceded parts supplied where STM seemingly considered the complaints to be legitimate, and replacement parts where there has been an actual mechanical failure in the parts.

You say they had all the info and sold you a  product that didn't suit your needs.. But you also say you bought the clutch through someone else. Vivid racing, who now won't deal with you. Does that mean that it wasn't actually STM that gave the guarantee it would solve all your problems ? Be honest Keys.. Isn't it the case that in fact STM have bent over backwards to try and help you ? Assistance which you repay with this treachery. 

I see that some people, like you, have bought these clutches and struggled to get them tuned in as they hoped they would be able to, and are disgruntled, but those people were not mechanics. Other people that did manage to get their tune right after a bit say they have been very happy with their setup, that it's performed well and they are very happy with it.

There is a fellow in this forum Keys, that was trying to convince me for days that there is a certain common japanese carburetor that can't be tuned. He tells me that he's spent hours and hours and weeks and weeks and months even struggling(his words) to tune this particular make and model of carb to suit his modified quad. We got into that discussion because he disagreed with me about how the idle speed and mixture should be adjusted. He likes to tune his in a different way to what myself and the manufacturers say it should be done. I know though that when you adjust it as he was suggesting to someone, that it leads to a vicious circle of bad adjustment after adjustment trying to overcome a problem you are making worse, a problem caused by adjusting it as he prefers. He eventually claimed that doing it his way, that you didn't need any idle circuits on a carb, and there were no problems with that because we have electric start now, His theory about why these carbys are so untunable is because they weren't designed with the aid of a computer. That fellow though Keys, didn't know or understand how the various different circuits in a carby worked, let alone how they interacted and overlapped oneother. But he still insisted that it was the carby that was badly made.  He simply could not bring himself to acknowledge that it was him that had the problem, not the carby.

You, and your problem Keys, sounds just like this same mind set. He blames the carby maker, who have made hundreds of thousands of carbys over near a century, for being , in his opinion, incompetent. He thinks they shouldn't be selling those carbys. You, because you weren't able to tune your clutch to do what you thought it should do, blame the clutch.

There are people out there that are running bigger tyres I see, and with no problems, some with stock clutches, and some with aftermarket. I also see that some people consistently get what I would consider totally unacceptable life spans out of their belts, 300 miles, while others get  what for a polaris is considered acceptable.. Still only a few, very few, thousands of miles per belt. Some of those people have stock clutches and some have aftermarket.

It's unfortunate that you haven't been able to get what you want or hoped for Keys, it's a pity that you think it's all somebody else's fault, but your disappointment can't all be sheeted home to STM, and you really should be able to see that in the same way the fellow with the carby  should be able to see that it's not the design of the carby. Neither of you can though..

I'm sure STM are used to people like you Keys, and if I was STM Keys, having given you all the help and advice they have, to no avail, I wouldn't want to have anything more to do with you. It doesn't reflect on them Keys, by your own admission they have been very helpful, but there are some things which we professional people have to step away from because we are professional. We can't allow ourselves to be blackmailed or coerced into attempting the impossible, and refusing to attempt the impossible is the professional thing to do. They didn't design Polaris, they have no control over your driving abilities, they can't overcome every limitation of belt drive. Satisfying your unreasonable expectations is the impossible.

I think you have a lot to account for here Keys.. I think you need to accept that and stop libeling these people with your scurrilous posts. I even think you should apologise.. but that's just me, that's what I would do having had these things pointed out to me.

The only thing I do agree with you about is.. I wouldn't want to be "That Guy". Not because he'd wasted money, but because I wouldn't want to be him.

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Good morning Mech, you are correct as I put in my first Thread, Vivid Racing, one of their trusted suppliers sold me the part. Without writing another book. The sales rep was in contact with them, in order to initially set the clutch up and when I first started having problems.after my second call back to them needing more information they stopped returning my calls so I Tracked down STM myself and started the tuning process over with their tech that was on staff Dustin. Good Guy.

Through our dialog and some of your points, I think I need to figure out where the the needs to be riding on both pulleys for max torque. 

Then figure out what primary and secondary spring pressures I need at a certain rpm to get it there.

If your interested? To set the base tune STM got me out on a flat dirt road. I got the buggy rolling to 20 mph, marked my rpm, then held it to the floor till I hit 50 and marked that rpm. and we went from there. Way to much to type from hear but I learned allot from that looking back now because first flag was my buggy wasn't turning the rpm that it should anymore with the extra weight from the tires( hence the STM tunable clutch purchase)

When I figured out how to tune it to get the rpms close to where they should be. I couldn't keep a belt on it for any length of time.

This is why I reached out. My father was an engineer. At a very young age he taught me if you learn the theory and principles behind how something operates you can fix anything as its just parts an pieces from there so don't be intimated. He could fix anything. 

I understand the theory of how this functions. I need the " principles " part which is the spring pressures and where and how much weight to be using on the clutch arms to achieve my goal 

STM started building racing clutches for race sleds, and jumped into dune buggy racing from what I am told. Setting up a clutch to go just blast down a track at 140 or whatever or going balls to the walls in sand dunes is night and day from what I do. I was not told to way later in this process that they had never actually really tuned a clutch for my application.  At this point I was not very happy at all, but was, and still am willing to find a solution with Dustin as I believe there is one. I can't fix the past but I sure have the ability change the future with the right information.

[Mech]

 Why don't you just go to Polaris and tell them that you don'f find belt drive up to your requirements. They should/might give you a refund on that buggy they sold you surely.

 

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Hey Mech I actually love my buggy I got her " Triple B " all decked out the way I want it and still need to install my lift.. I don't mind the belt drive and love the way it handles and rides. I just need to find a system that's a little more belt friendly for my needs. I haven't given up on this yet. I just Don't have much extra time right now to do more research and testing. So it's stock tires till I do.

[Mech]

Yeah it look like fun.. for the dunes..  A bit too short, but that would add to the excitement huh.

If you really must go out doing your serious four wheel driving, doing the aggressive trail riding, with its river crossings, and huge, hub deep mud holes.. You should learn how to get out when you are stuck.

You should look up how "shear-legs" work. That would have had you out of there in a moment with no strain on anything.

You could get your mates and a rope and done what's knows as "snigging", and had it out in ten minutes.

If you use a tie-down strop off to the side of your winch cable you can pull from the side where you don't want to take your buddy's buggy. That often helps.

A single man with modest pulleys and a rope Keys, can move a thirty foot boat up a chest high bank, using shear-legs. A single boy, can drag a quad hundreds of feet, up a steep slippery hill he should never gone down, with a rope and snigging.

Perhaps, if you asked nicely, Ulf in here might take you out and show you how to drive a belt drive, and have some real adventures. You got about as much chance as STM coming to fix your problem for you...  Might as well ask. 

 

You need lifts  ? ? ?

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Good Morning Mech, yea you want a Longer wheel base for dune riding. Oh I am well versed at mechanical advantage. I worked for the largest logger in Vermont when I was a kid thinking I wanted to work on heavy equipment. 

Picture riding in the dunes except it's not sand it's mud an swamp. Your right it's easy to get out of a hole when you have something to strap to. My rig is loaded with pulleys etc.  We have actually had to strap rigs together and use pulleys to get a buddy out as we didn't have the weight advantage he was so embedded. All in the fun. He's one for ya.I was riding with him in his Can Am. We crossed this " Stream " a 100 times. It rained and he miscalculated how much it had risen as you really couldn't tell. So you drain um and go bsck at it. We are not fair weather riders. We don't come out to look for another excuse to drink beer, those boys stay on the porch. You say these vehicles weren't made for this, I disagree, guess you haven't watched many videos as there are thousands of great ones where guys, an girls, are seeing exactly what there buggys can do. For me that's the whole reason I purchased it. If I wanted a show piece I would buy another hot rod.

 

[Mech]

Your point being ?

[Mech]

Lucky the jeep was able to get to you huh..  No Jeeps if you go out with Ulf..

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Everyone's idea of going off road to have fun is different and brings different challenges with it. I am looking for some guys that ride aggressive in terrian like myself, already have had my issues, and found a solution that they are happy with by using a particular clutch and tuning setup STM or otherwise, pretty simple.  Not interested in gear reduction as previously mentioned I don't think it's necessary. Yes to your earlier question about the lift. There is everything from ten foot swamp buggies on down that ride here. With a little extra height, not much, it will give me enough clearance if I slip into a big wheel hole to power myself out without hanging up most times.

[KeysPropertyGuy]

It wasn't a jeep it was two other side by sides, one that I winches to and he back to me to pull me forward after the other guy got me level again out of the suction from the side. Good ol teamwork got it done.

Funny you should mention a jeep, here is a video of us bailing a lifted jeep out though. He was buried all the way to the rockers. This guy was sitting for hours already,

 we just happened to drive by and see him. He would of been there all night. He was 10 miles from nowhere by himself with girl and kid. Now that's totally crazy out here, no matter what your driving, bring a buddy! Plus it's more fun riding with someone.

[Mech]

The orange thing in the picture sure looks like a jeep..  No matter.. 

What would I know..

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Mech

[davefrombc]

4 hours ago, KeysPropertyGuy said:

Good Morning Mech, yea you want a Longer wheel base for dune riding. Oh I am well versed at mechanical advantage. I worked for the largest logger in Vermont when I was a kid thinking I wanted to work on heavy equipment. 

Picture riding in the dunes except it's not sand it's mud an swamp. Your right it's easy to get out of a hole when you have something to strap to. My rig is loaded with pulleys etc.  We have actually had to strap rigs together and use pulleys to get a buddy out as we didn't have the weight advantage he was so embedded. All in the fun. He's one for ya.I was riding with him in his Can Am. We crossed this " Stream " a 100 times. It rained and he miscalculated how much it had risen as you really couldn't tell. So you drain um and go bsck at it. We are not fair weather riders. We don't come out to look for another excuse to drink beer, those boys stay on the porch. You say these vehicles weren't made for this, I disagree, guess you haven't watched many videos as there are thousands of great ones where guys, an girls, are seeing exactly what there buggys can do. For me that's the whole reason I purchased it. If I wanted a show piece I would buy another hot rod.

 

That orange and black "side by side" sure does a great job of disguising itself  as a Jeep

[Mech]

I think we're just getting confused by it's road tyres Dave..  They make it look like a jeep out in the wilderness..

Bahahaha.....  

[KeysPropertyGuy]

..It wasn't a jeep it was two other side by sides, one that I winches to and he back to me to pull me forward after the other guy got me level again out of the suction from the side. Good ol teamwork got it done.

Funny you should mention a jeep, here is a video of us bailing a lifted jeep out though. He was buried all the way to the rockers. This guy was sitting for hours already,

 we just happened to drive by and see him. He would of been there all night. He was 10 miles from nowhere by himself with girl and kid. Now that's totally crazy out here, no matter what your driving, bring a buddy! Plus it's more fun riding with someone.

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Hey Dave I think you are getting your pics mixed up. Yup that orange jeep was another one that my friend Bobby pulled out after he pulled Darren an I out of the river. He was another lone ranger, 4 guys out drinking all along without a winch or anything. when you mentioned jeep Mech was talking about my buggy getting stuck. Hey look as you guys obviously have this thing figured out way better then I please feel free to come out anytime. I will get y'all a guest pass and we can go tear it up together. I am positive there will be plenty of opportunities for you to show us your expertise. 

[Mech]

I like nature Keys. I don't tear it up..

And that is a jeep, with road tyres..  Waaaay out there with you explorers...

 

The trouble with lies is that they don't stay the same in our minds when we are retelling them.. It all gets confused and we contradict ourselves.. 

It's a bugger really..

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Ya NAILED IT Mech, it's basically 57,000 acres of this, with trailers scattered in a small part of it!, This place is located in Central Florida. Elevation of this whole area is only 112' feet above sea level to begin with.  It's an awesome place to ride and by far the largest in the east for this type of challenge. This is like dune riding in the aspect you can just blaze a trail anywhere your heart desires if you got the cohonez. Trail riding is fun, I loved West Virginia and am going back, but these are all man made trails that you have to follow, big difference.

[Gwbarm]

Looks like a Trail Blazers paradise

[KeysPropertyGuy]

I'm sure you guys would love it for sure. Night riding is really cool too. It's really nice this time of year too as its 70's temp wise which is beautiful.

[Ulfthednar]

[Mech]

I saw your appraisal of the quad Ulf.. very good.. Good to get familiar with them.

(no not like that ! )..

[Ulfthednar]

My beach borders the sky and has way fewer sheeople.

1 minute ago, Mech said:

I saw your appraisal of the quad Ulf.. very good.. Good to get familiar with them.

(no not like that ! )..

well . . I damn near ended up on the bottom last week . . but the thing pulls hard and stable in reverse. steep hill with a pretty harsh drop right before a kelly hump. I was standing almost vertical on the front fenders going down. Got to this spot and said . . "nope" nope . . not without backup on that one. Backed right on out of it too.

[Mech]

ha..  It's a good test of them if they can back down.. the weights all go to hell, the brake proportioning all goes to hell, some transmission systems think it's fun and try to go faster, others just disengage... and then they need steering.. 

Well done. I think I would have got off, roped it to a tree if needed, and swung it around the other direction. I'm a sook !

[Ulfthednar]

well . . . there were no trees large enough . . . out screwing around in a clear cut.

Been poking around my scrap pile looking for material to make an ATV sized pul-pal though.

extra long ground spike though. Theres usually a lot of "duff" or built up detritus from needle and leaf shed.

Its basically fluffy compost like stuff that can be pretty deep and not really stable.

 

I do have more bow shackles/ and a 100 ft "oops I screwed up rope" on the way.

 

Reminds me of a time I got sideways on a snot slick downhill with my 73 dodge.

Wed rode out to retrieve my buddys stuck 1/2 2wheel chev up in the swan range in Montana

We got to this nasty looking spot and my buddy said "yeah, go around this tree and youll be . . well . . maybe not fine .  but stuck, yeah. 

two trucks stuck and no way I wanted to hear the ribbing on top of it.

I did not have a winch.

But I had a 30 foot skidder cable and and some binders.

I ran the cable around a tree, secured it to my rear bumper (massive piece of design work) and to the frame horns in front and watched my buddy trip as I drove down hill . . which sucked my as* end right up to the tree. Then I bound the back end around the tree with a chain so I had a pivot point, reset the skidder cable and did it again, this time steering uphill, which . . using the tree as a pinion, sucked my front end up onto solid ground.

We had just tossed all the gear back in the truck when the second rescue truck came up around the mountain.

we got some sideways glances and questioned about being stuck to which I replied "I didnt see a thing, and I aint telling" . .

We all laughed, got my buddies truck back on the road, threw down beer and got em all home with another good laugh and story to tell.

Im tickled well . . not pink . . to have something with a winch on it.

Ive gotten a 2wd 1-1/2 ton van off the frame and off a sandbar with a shovel and cut brush. used farm jacks and stamped bumper jacks (pre hi lift) to lift vehicles and shove them over or build up rocks and logs under the wheels and crab walked up icy hills with bald tires.

We got a 69 ford fairlane stuck one time crossing a creek bed one time. Bumper to bumper and the wheels on both ends just barely touching dirt.

Cut logs and rounds for levers to lever the thing up high enough to get a bumper jack on it, then the bumper jack up enough to get a trolley jack under the spring perch so we could raise the car enough to get the wheels out of the hole . . each corner we had to do that one.

I kinda like this winch thing . . makes it a lot less hassle.

but one of these days Im going to do the flip flop winch just so I KNOW how to use it . . 

 

My dad taught me to think that way . . and its come in damned handy a lot of times.

 

[Mech]

Ha.. good stories Ulf.. I've had bikes stuck and the quad, and subarus, but I haven't driven any trucks/utes off road, well not far enough to get them stuck anyway. . My sons are bee keepers and they are always coming home with pictures of proper 4x4 trucks sideways at what they tell me is seventy km, with four or five tons of hives on, or utes with a front wheel over a bloody big drop, on a bad camber, and uphill.. I've been out with them and it's running out the winch cable to get in, and again to get out of sites. All in a days work. They love it. Head off at 2am to get there an hour before dark.. working away quietly with the bees in the first glimmer of light, still and cool, gentle murmer of voices as they discuss hives..  Bloody lovely way to make a living and work.. Some of us are lucky...

Oh yeah... and the point.. I taught them the ways.. And so it goes on.

[KeysPropertyGuy]

Ulftheandr, that sounds CRAZY DUDE,  It's amazing what you can come up with when ya got to. That would call for celebration for sure.  

Living in the Florida Keys " they day fishing capital of the world " not big on fishing myself though. I actually thought about mounting a Danforth Anchor to my roof for those open field issues as they dig good and can be used to Anchor someone else when they are pulling. Skidder Cable, now that brings back some rough memories for me also. Sounds like ya got some cool rides. When I was young we used to take anything into the woods too. I had a few screws missing sometimes lol.

Can relate to your climbing thoughts also it was really steep crazy like that in West Virginia too. The people I was with were older an not to adventurous. I wanted to try to do some black diamond trails as I have watched a ton of videos on them, but no one was interested, and they aren't for solo adventurous I was told. 

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Ulfthednar]

Ehh, getting my 73 RC out of a creek bottom I had no intention to go into was a pretty good feat.

In a number of ways the mindset up here is similar to the Deep South.

We just do what we do and getting stuck is part of it, like driving in snow in the winter time and such.

We dont have gators and wild hogs, we have bear, moose and mountain lions. A couple guys I work with were stalked over the weekend by a pair of mountain lions (visual sightings) and they were less than three miles (as the crow flies) from my literal backyard.

Most guys and lots of the women have similar stories and drunk tales and listening to their stories about how they got out or got unstuck? You file that information away for future "what if" scenarios.

Listening is always a functional asset of developing wisdom.