2008 300 cc MountainView Roughneck no spark (Chinese ATV)

[PKR]

This quad has sat in a shed for the last 14 years as it won't crank over. I cleaned up some connectors and grounds and had the machine cranking and running. Pulled the starter off and had it rebuilt as connectors were all very loose. Reinstalled starter and now it cranks over good but I have no spark. If I leave it sit for a few weeks I do get a weak spark for about 10 cranks and then nothing. Any and all help greatly appreciated.

[Savage3]

Do you own a multimeter and digital volt adapter?

Try disconnecting kill switch first. Then check for spark.

Next,  start troubleshooting by checking pulse/trigger coil, CDI, and coil.

Let us know the results....

[Mech]

First thing I'd do is recheck all my work taking the starter out, looking for knocked off wires anywhere near where I was working, or bad or wrongly connected wires, or bad earths between motor, frame and battery.

Then, as suggested, disconnect the kill switch, check the spark plug, check the spark plug.s cap for resistance or shorts to earth, then start checking the coil, stator and trigger coil.. If all those seemed to be ok I think I'd pull the stator cover off and check for tiny bits of magnetic stuff stuck to the magnets or trigger or stator winding laminated cores.

[PKR]

Thanks for the responses. These are the readings I got this morning. COIL - Primary was 4.2 ohms, secondary was 16.96 ohms. Tested for voltage - pink wire 12.0 vdc with key on and while cranking motor, Black/Green wire 0 vdc with key on and 0.3 vdc while cranking. STATOR - pins 1-2, 1-3 & 2-3 all at 0.9 ohms, When tested to ground they all showed open circuit. CRANK POSITION SENSOR - pin to pin 184.6 ohms, tested to ground both pins showed open circuit. CDI - Black/Green open circuit, Green 0.2ohms, Blue/White open, Black/Red open, Pink 1.0 ohms. Tested for voltage only one that gave reading with key on and when cranking was the pink wire, showed 23.8 vac and 11.3 vdc with key on and also when cranking. Unplugged safety switch, made no difference, tried new plug, made no difference. Rechecked all wiring around starter and eveything looks good. battery is new. Not sure what all these readings mean as electrical isn't my bag but hopefully they point me in the right direction.

[Mech]

The stator and trigger coil readings sound about right. The ignition coil isn't right. The primary winding should have almost no resistance, a half an ohm perhaps, and the secondary winding should have a high resistance..

I don't know what the readings should be on the cdi but the service manual will tell you. They vary a lot. Without a manual I'd change the coil and hope that's the only problem.

[Savage3]

2 hours ago, PKR said:

Thanks for the responses. These are the readings I got this morning. COIL - Primary was 4.2 ohms, secondary was 16.96 ohms. Tested for voltage - pink wire 12.0 vdc with key on and while cranking motor, Black/Green wire 0 vdc with key on and 0.3 vdc while cranking. STATOR - pins 1-2, 1-3 & 2-3 all at 0.9 ohms, When tested to ground they all showed open circuit. CRANK POSITION SENSOR - pin to pin 184.6 ohms, tested to ground both pins showed open circuit. CDI - Black/Green open circuit, Green 0.2ohms, Blue/White open, Black/Red open, Pink 1.0 ohms. Tested for voltage only one that gave reading with key on and when cranking was the pink wire, showed 23.8 vac and 11.3 vdc with key on and also when cranking. Unplugged safety switch, made no difference, tried new plug, made no difference. Rechecked all wiring around starter and eveything looks good. Battery is new. Not sure what all these readings mean as electrical isn't my bag but hopefully they point me in the right direction.

Did you use a digital volt adapter when measuring CDI?

[Savage3]

Did you use a digital volt adapter when measuring CDI?

Is this a a/c or d/c CDI?

How many pins are on the CDI? Appears to be 5 based on readings.

What was the reading on the trigger coils? Resistance? Then voltage while cranking?

[Savage3]

 

What was the reading on the trigger coil?  Voltage while cranking? Did I miss this reading?

See if you can find specs in service manual. I have to warn you oftentimes, the specs are sketchy on Chinese models. However, we can see if it is in the ball park.

Sorry for repeated questions, having internet issues.

[Savage3]

Tested for voltage only one that gave reading with key on and when cranking was the pink wire, showed 23.8 vac and 11.3 vdc with key on and also when cranking. 

 

I agree with Mech, coil readings seem incorrect for most Chinese atv's.

I'm also a bit confused by the DC and AC on same wire. CDI is fed AC.

Also, when you disconnected "safety switch" which wire did you disconnect? What color and where did you disconnect the wire from? What pin location in connector?

Sorry Boss, it's a bit confusing trying to diagnose no spark online...lol

The CDI will provide inaccurate readings as will the trigger on a TRMS meter because the frequency is too fast. Should use a digital volt adapter.

You should be seeing about .02-.04 volts on trigger signal when cranking. I've seen them go as high as .07.

 

[PKR]

Thanks for the response.

Not sure what you mean by the trigger coil?

All I have is a cheap multimeter. It has ACV and DCV on it. 

The safety switch has it's own 2 wire plug that I disconnected. This is for the switch on the handle bars.

The CDI has 8 pins but the plug only has 5 wires to it. Black/green, green, Blue/White, Black/Red and Pink.

As for a service manual I doubt there is one for this unit as it was only made a sold for 1 year that I know of. Have not been able to find anything about it online.

Thanks for the response. It will take a few weeks for me to find a coil. Once I have one I will let you know if that was the problem.

[Gwbarm]

The trigger coil is located under the rotor stator cover of the engine as the rotor goes around the magnet causes the trigger coil to  pulse causing spark not sure on your bike but my guess would be the blue and white wire, you can test with OHM meter by going blue white to ground. Not sure on your bike most have 200 OHM coils set meter to 2000OHM should show .2 on meter good range is usually .2 to .4

[Mech]

Coils for cdi bikes are pretty much universal..  You'll get one that will do the job no trouble.. Just find one the right mount spacing, with convenient terminals, and a long enough HT wire. 

I don't think we should even try to guess the correct readings or the wiring for the cdi unit.. Without a service manuals it's better to verify everything else is working and so through a process of elimination deduce whether the cdi unit if good or not. That's how it's generally done even with things with a service manual available.

One thing you can do is eliminate wiring as being the problem..  Trace the wires from down on the stator connector on the engine, up to the cdi unit, and check all of the wires have the same resistance/ohm reading up there as they did have down at the engine, or check for resistance from one end of those wires to the other..

[Savage3]

I wouldn't purchase any parts until we have found the problem.

Some pictures of CDI and wiring would be great when you have time.

[Savage3]

13 hours ago, PKR said:

Thanks for the responses. These are the readings I got this morning. COIL - Primary was 4.2 ohms, secondary was 16.96 ohms. Tested for voltage - pink wire 12.0 vdc with key on and while cranking motor, Black/Green wire 0 vdc with key on and 0.3 vdc while cranking. STATOR - pins 1-2, 1-3 & 2-3 all at 0.9 ohms, When tested to ground they all showed open circuit. CRANK POSITION SENSOR - pin to pin 184.6 ohms, tested to ground both pins showed open circuit. CDI - Black/Green open circuit, Green 0.2ohms, Blue/White open, Black/Red open, Pink 1.0 ohms. Tested for voltage only one that gave reading with key on and when cranking was the pink wire, showed 23.8 vac and 11.3 vdc with key on and also when cranking. Unplugged safety switch, made no difference, tried new plug, made no difference. Rechecked all wiring around starter and eveything looks good. Battery is new. Not sure what all these readings mean as electrical isn't my bag but hopefully they point me in the right direction.

Ok, so, in this post your only showing 12V DC on pink wire. Good news!

The pulse coil is what you referred to as crank position sensor with 186 ohms. 

Good news!

However, I'd like to know the VOLTAGE from those same wires. Resistance testing is often not accurate or all inclusive.

In addition, the crank sensor is positioned so there is an air gap, usually around .010-.014.

First check voltage, if voltage is good, gap should also be ok.

Your looking for something in the area of .02-.05, I seen them as high as .07vac on a regular cheap meter.

Also, look closely at ALL grounds. As Mech mentioned, rational thought tells us that if it ran prior to starter replacement, it should spark after replacement. Trace your steps thoroughly.

That being said, it could be coincidence that another component failed since starter replacement. Possible, but not probable.

Edited February 14 by Savage3
Typo

[Mech]

"I'm also a bit confused by the DC and AC on same wire. CDI is fed AC. "..

I figure that is probably right Savage..  an AC voltage of about double the DC voltage, and I'm guessing one half of the wave is being sunk through a diode into the capacitor..   that could explain that. The DC will be pulsing I figure.

And yes, as Gw says, some pictures or even better a diagram of which wires go where would be helpful.. You could trace them with your multimeter if it has a buzzer or using the ohm gauge. It would be good to see the wires with their colours at the engine/stator connector, the crank position wires with their colours, and the wires at the cdi unit with their colours and the wires and colours at the kill and possibly the key switch.. And also if you can find an earth, what colour they are using for earth would help.

[Savage3]

On 2/13/2023 at 1:04 PM, PKR said:

Thanks for the responses. These are the readings I got this morning. COIL - Primary was 4.2 ohms, secondary was 16.96 ohms. Tested for voltage - pink wire 12.0 vdc with key on and while cranking motor, Black/Green wire 0 vdc with key on and 0.3 vdc while cranking. STATOR - pins 1-2, 1-3 & 2-3 all at 0.9 ohms, When tested to ground they all showed open circuit. CRANK POSITION SENSOR - pin to pin 184.6 ohms, tested to ground both pins showed open circuit. CDI - Black/Green open circuit, Green 0.2ohms, Blue/White open, Black/Red open, Pink 1.0 ohms. Tested for voltage only one that gave reading with key on and when cranking was the pink wire, showed 23.8 vac and 11.3 vdc with key on and also when cranking. Unplugged safety switch, made no difference, tried new plug, made no difference. Rechecked all wiring around starter and eveything looks good. Battery is new. Not sure what all these readings mean as electrical isn't my bag but hopefully they point me in the right direction.

One other thing I forgot to mention. 12.0V on the pink "power in" wire means you either...... have a lot of resistance between the battery and CDI or ...

 you have a battery with less then 50 percent charge or ......

your meter/ reading is inaccurate.

You should see around 12.6V or at least close to battery voltage.

I would take a close look at that situation. Tell us what the meter reads when connected to battery while cranking.

You should see no less then 9.6V

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mech]

"If I leave it sit for a few weeks I do get a weak spark for about 10 cranks and then nothing."... 

CDI ?  Flakes of metal on stator/trigger poles ?

I think I agree with Savage, you need to check there is AC voltage coming out of the stator windings (the three with the very low ohms, approx 1 ohm) and the trigger coil (high ohm reading, approx 80 to 200 ohms). If there is voltage coming out of them, then trace the wires and make sure that at least two of them go to the cdi unit. Check they are getting the same voltage at the cdi as they were down at the engine/stator. Check the stator and the trigger coils windings and wires to the cdi. Let us know what AC voltages you were getting.

If at least two of the stator's three wires (not counting the trigger coils wires), aren't going to the cdi, let us know..  it means it's a 12 volt cdi.

[Mech]

The figures for the coil are way off though..  it needs a new coil..  Do that first and then start testing.. 

[PKR]

Quick update. 

One of the guys at coffee row had a friend that does all this trouble shooting. He came out did all his testing and said it was the CDI. I have ordered anew CDI and should have it next week. Will let you know if that works.

[Savage3]

Sounds good Boss, thanks for the update....

[PKR]

Update: It was the CDI. Installed new one and spark is back and unit is firing. Now to tackle the gas side, as you can imagine it is pretty gummed up after sitting for 14 years.

Thanks for all you help and ideas for testing the electrical on this thing. I've learned some more about testing for electrical problems that I can use in the future.

 

[Gwbarm]

Thanks for the update, you got it sparking, downhill from here.