Which Brand of Battery is Best

[JustRandy]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:02 AM, davefrombc said:

Lithium  batteries can be drawn down to  nearly their full capacity  without  similar degradation,

I don't think that is true.  Lithium batteries like to be drawn down to 60% and charged up to 80% for maximum life.  Discharging them beyond 50% causes them irreparable harm.  I have lithium chainsaws, weedeaters, leaf blowers, hedge trimmers and never ever let them go beyond 2 bars out of 4.  I also have laptop batteries that have lasted 20 years by observing that rule.  Anytime my phone is down to 60% - 70% I plug it in.

Lithium batteries can last indefinitely if they are not discharged.

Another problem with lithium is charging them cold results in an overcharged condition when they warm up, so they may not make a good atv battery without a computer to account for temperature changes.

On 11/22/2022 at 2:02 AM, davefrombc said:

If you want  long service life out of lead acid batteries , they need to be kept on a  maintainer when  not in use. 

I used to use maintainers over winter but they only evaporated the water out of the batteries which ruined the plates.  I found it's better to charge them up periodically then let them sit in between charges.

On 11/22/2022 at 2:34 PM, Mech said:

Lead batteries are just so robust, they can handle misuse so much better, with far less risk of disaster.

Yes that's why I like them but the downside is they spill acid and rust my frame.  I've tried various tubes and containers to catch the acid while still venting the air but haven't found anything that works yet.  Maybe SLA is the way to go.  I'm currently using gel and so far so good.  AGM left me stranded on top of a mountain after it just quit, so I'm leery of them.  I'd prefer something that gradually got weaker to give me warning rather than to suddenly stop working with no warning.

[davefrombc]

A good maintainer will not boil a battery out.  They're a far cry from the old ferro-resonant trickle chargers.

Flooded batteries are not good in ATVs. They leak because of the bouncing they get from  ATV service, and  AGM batteries are needlessly expensive.  A SLA battery doesn't leak  in ATV service and in my opinion  is by far the best choice  for price and ATV reliability.

  Yes you  can top  up  a  battery every few weeks or at most every 3 to 6  months in storage , but then  you must remember to  do  it,  bring them to  full  charge and then remember to  disconnect them  from the old trickle chargers. The newer maintainers can be connected and left connected  without  worrying about boiling them  out  or having them go flat and sulfate up because you forgot to  top them  up.

 

[Gwbarm]

I may be a little behind in my terminology :

Flooded battery is one you can add liquid too.

SLA is the same as flooded only sealed

 

[Mech]

That's right GW..

But Randy, just about everything you said about lithium is exactly the opposite of correct.

 

[JustRandy]

3 hours ago, davefrombc said:

A good maintainer will not boil a battery out.

They're the battery Minder brand.  I used to buy a couple each black friday and now I have a bunch of them and no use for them.  I'm leery of anything keeping the battery voltage above what it wants to be because it will evaporate the water out eventually.  I wouldn't trust anything unless it turned itself off for weeks until the voltage dropped sufficiently.

3 hours ago, davefrombc said:

A SLA battery doesn't leak  in ATV service and in my opinion  is by far the best choice  for price and ATV reliability.

I agree with you there.  I will try SLA next.  I'm currently using gel and it's been working fine for years.  I've burned up many starters during using that battery.  Speaking of that I need to swap brushes right now.  I have to hold the starter button and rock the atv to get the starter moving.  Happens every couple years.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

But Randy, just about everything you said about lithium is exactly the opposite of correct.

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

Bouncing between 75% and 65% gets the most life from the battery.  75/45 is lower and 75/25 is lower still. 

100/25 is the worst, so taking a fully charged battery and running it down to 25% is the worst thing you can do.

Since I can't stop the charger from charging to 100% because I can't sit and watch it, the only thing I can do is stop it from going below 60%, which is roughly 2 bars out of 4 on my power tools.

"Similar to a mechanical device that wears out faster with heavy use, the depth of discharge (DoD) determines the cycle count of the battery. The smaller the discharge (low DoD), the longer the battery will last. If at all possible, avoid full discharges and charge the battery more often between uses. Partial discharge on Li-ion is fine. There is no memory and the battery does not need periodic full discharge cycles to prolong life."

[Mech]

You didn't get that graph, or information from a battery manufacturer, now did you Randy...

But it came from the internet and so must be right eh..

[JustRandy]

12 minutes ago, Mech said:

You didn't get that graph, or information from a battery manufacturer, now did you Randy...

It's battery university which is sponsored by Cadex.

"Cadex has been recognized as a world leader in battery testing, and the advanced battery analyzers, chargers and monitoring devices the company makes are proof of this strength."  https://batteryuniversity.com/about-us

And the graph originally came from published research https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303890624_Modeling_of_Lithium-Ion_Battery_Degradation_for_Cell_Life_Assessment

A manufacturer could say anything, but not anything can get published in a respected IEEE journal.

12 minutes ago, Mech said:

But it came from the internet and so must be right eh..

No, it disagrees with what you think so it must be wrong.

I'll believe battery university.  You believe whatever you want.

[Gwbarm]

What I do know about lithium batteries, if you run the battery down to much the charger sees it as bad and won't charge it, hence you have to put voltage back in it from another battery, then the charger will recognize it as good and charge it up.

[Mech]

Your cut-n-paste text contradicts the graph Randy..

You tell me I'm naive to believe what "big corporations", say, because according to you, they can lie, but you believe anything on the internet that supports your misguided opinions.

It's no matter though, because we are discussing starting batteries.. and we would like to think that if we had a decent sort of vehicle the battery would never get down below the twenty-five percent discharge that the manufacturers say doesn't qualify as any discharge cycle..

I'm a mechanic and was taught about batteries and trained in their care, and I've worked on thousands of machines and diagnosed hundreds of charging and battery problems, I've been off grid using batteries for power for.. er.. about thirty-eight years..  How far beyond the internet does your education and experience with batteries go Randy ?

[JustRandy]

37 minutes ago, Gwbarm said:

What I do know about lithium batteries, if you run the battery down to much the charger sees it as bad and won't charge it, hence you have to put voltage back in it from another battery, then the charger will recognize it as good and charge it up.

I've seen youtube videos about that, but thankfully I haven't had a bad lithium battery to try it on.

A guy called into a radio show to complain about batteries.   He said he was a professional landscaper and spent $1000s on battery tools, then all the batteries failed.  I was thinking "yep, he probably ran the batteries down all the way."  Those tools aren't made for pros, but they're perfect for homeowners.  Anyway his point was all the EV cars will be headed for the landfill pretty soon, based on his experience with power tools.

I have lots of AA and AAA NiMH batteries that run trail cams and sometimes one battery won't charge in the modern computerized 10-bay charger I have, so I put the dead one in an old charger from 20 yrs ago that essentially forces it to charge.  After a few seconds in the old charger, they will charge in the modern charger.  But those are the old Nimh batteries that they say to run down all the way, and then some, to dissolve the crystals that build up.  Killing them is actually good for them, they say.

I think a lot of confusion comes up, especially among people who grew up with the older NiMH batteries that had to be run down all the way, regarding how to treat the newer lithium batteries.  They're essentially opposite.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

Your cut-n-paste text contradicts the graph Randy..

No it doesn't.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

You tell me I'm naive to believe what "big corporations", say, because according to you, they can lie, but you believe anything on the internet that supports your misguided opinions.

I said manufacturers can say anything, but not anything can get published in a respected IEEE journal.

IEEE journals are not just "anything on the internet".

I'm surprised a know-it-all such as yourself hasn't heard of it https://www.ieee.org/publications/

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

It's no matter though, because we are discussing starting batteries.. and we would like to think that if we had a decent sort of vehicle the battery would never get down below the twenty-five percent discharge that the manufacturers say doesn't qualify as any discharge cycle..

Did you forget winches?  So no, we're not just discussing starting batteries, which are batteries designed to deliver a lot of amps in short bursts.  Winches can continuously draw in excess of what charging systems can deliver.

For instance, I have the biggest regulator Rick's Electronics sells, which can only handle 50 amps.  My winch can draw 300 amps.  With the winch it's as if I have no charging system at all.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

I'm a mechanic and was taught about batteries and trained in their care, and I've worked on thousands of machines and diagnosed hundreds of charging and battery problems, I've been off grid using batteries for power for.. er.. about thirty-eight years..  How far beyond the internet does your education and experience with batteries go Randy ?

How much of that time in ancient history was devoted to modern lithium batteries?

Just like the carb thread and regulator thread you're desperately trying to portray yourself as an expert, and by doing so you're coming across as quite the opposite.  I suspect the third time won't be the charm.

[Mech]

Lol..  I know some things well Randy.. It's my job.

Do you have a smart phone Randy ?  Did you read it's owners manual ?

You've been here ten years I think you said Randy, and you've made five-hundred odd posts, and how many problems have you got to the bottom of ?

I joined two years ago, and post anytime I have something useful to contribute..  I've been credited with five cures..  Compared to you Randy.. I am an expert.

And I wouldn't waste my time disagreeing with what you say just because it's you saying it Randy. I disagree with posts I think are wrong and dangerously wrong.

[JustRandy]

3 minutes ago, Mech said:

Lol..  I know some things well Randy.. It's my job.

What relevance does underwater basket weaving have to lithium batteries?

Even if your job were designing and building lithium batteries, your opinion still would not supersede publications in IEEE.

3 minutes ago, Mech said:

Do you have a smart phone Randy ?  Did you read it's owners manual ?

Yes

[Mech]

And what did your phone manual say about charging and discharging ?

 

[Mech]

And just as a matter of interest Randy.. do you have a profession, a trade, some experience in any industry at all relevant to the things we discuss in here ?

Other than politics that is.. Everyone's an expert and got an opinion about that.

[JustRandy]

1 minute ago, Mech said:

And what did your phone manual say about charging and discharging ?

Before using the device, fully charge the battery.
Connect one end of the charging cable to the charger, insert the other end
of the cable into the cable port, and then plug the charger into a power
socket.

•     Ensure that the inside of the device does not make contact with a
metallic object or water.
•     Do not charge while the device or charging cable is wet or contains
moisture. This can cause fire, electric shock, injury or damage to device.
If there is moisture, stop using the device immediately and remove the
moisture completely.
•     Do not use unapproved USB cables or chargers with your device. The
LG limited warranty does not cover damage caused by the use of third
party accessories.
•     Using the device when it is charging may cause electric shock. To use the
device, stop charging it.
•     Remove the charger from the power socket after the device is fully
charged. This prevents unnecessary power consumption.
•     Another way to charge the battery is by connecting a USB cable
between the device and a desktop or laptop computer. This may take a
longer time than plugging the adapter to a wall outlet.
•     Do not charge the battery by using a USB hub that is unable to maintain
the rated voltage. Charging may fail or unintentionally stop.
•     Since the battery is a consumable, the battery life may be shortened as
time goes.
Using the battery efficiently
battery lifespan may decrease if you keep many apps and functions
running simultaneously and continuously.
Stop apps and functions from running in the background to increase
battery life.
To minimize battery consumption, follow these tips:
•     Turn off the Bluetooth® or Wi-Fi network function when not using
them.
•     Set the screen timeout to as short a time as possible.

•     Minimize the screen brightness.
•     Set a screen lock when the device is not in use.
•     Check the battery level while using any downloaded apps.

4 minutes ago, Mech said:

And just as a matter of interest Randy.. do you have a profession, a trade, some experience in any industry at all relevant to the things we discuss in here ?

Even if I designed and built lithium batteries for 30 years it would still be completely irrelevant to publications in IEEE.

What part of appealing to yourself as an authority being irrelevant do you not understand?

Your choices are these:

1) Cite some publication from a respected engineering journal refuting my claim.

2) Come up with some rationale based on physical laws that demonstrate my claims cannot be true.

Patting yourself on the back and rummaging through phone manuals doesn't cut it.

[Ulfthednar]

oh . . hes arguing on the basis of his logic skills, not experience.

Kind of like reminding a government official of what their capacity is supposed to be.

 

[JustRandy]

3 minutes ago, Ulfthednar said:

oh . . hes arguing on the basis of his logic skills, not experience.

Evidently you missed where I said I had laptop batteries 20+yrs and never had experienced a dead lithium battery in spite of owning lots of lithium power tools.

But feel free to treat your lithium batteries differently and see how you fare.

 

[JustRandy]

Since everyone loves manuals so much, here's my chainsaw manual.  I took these pics for a stubborn friend I had who just couldn't believe it.

 

So we have a chainsaw manual + IEEE publication from battery University -vs- some old dude in New Zealand patting himself on the back.

If you're still too stubborn then, by all means, disregard all this and discharge your lithium batteries.

[Mech]

Trojan batteries have their testing done by independent testers Randy, and to very high standards..  I've already suggested anyone interested look in their technical resources.

You'd rather listen to a man that claims to have invented a radio transmitter that needed no power..  Each to his own.

And.. what exactly is your field of expertise Randy.. Not radio obviously, or carburetors.

 

 

[Mech]

Yes well Randy nothing in either of the manuals you quote say anything about not fully recharging the battery, or only operating them through a narrow range of mid-charge.. 

As with carbies, and diagnosing charging systems, or electrical faults in general, you prefer your opinions over the conventional wisdom and proven best practice.

[JustRandy]

1 minute ago, Mech said:

nothing in either of the manuals you quote say anything about not fully recharging the battery

And neither did I.  I said to charge to 100% and discharge no lower than 60%.

2 minutes ago, Mech said:

or only operating them through a narrow range of mid-charge.

Yes they did.  "Avoid low discharge cycles by charging the battery pack frequently".

3 minutes ago, Mech said:

As with carbies, and diagnosing charging systems, or electrical faults in general, you prefer your opinions over the conventional wisdom and proven best practice.

Yes, you embarrassed yourself thoroughly on those threads too.

I thought you may have learned when to keep silent when you didn't know what you were talking about.

[Mech]

And a quick read up on the beloved Researchgate reveals that it doesn't do any testing, or verifying. it links to people's published works, peer reviewed on not... and..

Is ResearchGate credible?

There are credible researchers with strong records of good quality peer-reviewed publications, even the occasional Nobel prize-winner, who are signed up to ResearchGate. But there are also many others with much weaker publication records, and contributions of doubtful value.

 

[JustRandy]

Just now, Mech said:

And a quick read up on the beloved Researchgate reveals that it doesn't do any testing, or verifying. it links to people's published works, peer reviewed on not... and..

Is ResearchGate credible?

There are credible researchers with strong records of good quality peer-reviewed publications, even the occasional Nobel prize-winner, who are signed up to ResearchGate. But there are also many others with much weaker publication records, and contributions of doubtful value.

You just keep making yourself look more desperate.  The publication is IEEE and is mirrored on researchgate.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7488267

Publisher: IEEE

Try again.

[Mech]

" Lithium batteries like to be drawn down to 60% and charged up to 80% for maximum life." Oh really.. and where did you read that?

 "Discharging them beyond 50% causes them irreparable harm.". Oh.. your opinion again or did you read that somewhere online ?

Just because IEEE quote or print something doesn't make it peer reviewed or science.. 

 

[JustRandy]

2 minutes ago, Mech said:

" Lithium batteries like to be drawn down to 60% and charged up to 80% for maximum life." Oh really.. and where did you read that?

 "Discharging them beyond 50% causes them irreparable harm.". Oh.. your opinion again or did you read that somewhere online ?

Those are the claims made by the IEEE publication which you're so desperate to refute with absolutely no reference or reasoning whatsoever.

As I said, we have a chainsaw manual + IEEE publication -vs- some old dude in New Zealand patting himself on the back.

You've brought nothing to the table other than "believe me because I'm old."

[Mech]

Yeah yeah yeah Randy... have a good day.. Go ride your bike or something..

[JustRandy]

1 hour ago, Mech said:

Yeah yeah yeah Randy... have a good day.. Go ride your bike or something..

I can't.  I have to change my starter brushes

But thanks for the well wishes man.  You have a good day too.

[Mech]

I always have a good day..  Helping people.