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Kawasaki Brute Force 200 same as Kymco MXU 270


jpz
Go to solution Solved by jpz,

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The issue I am having with this one is not starting. 

The owner told me the gas is 5-6 months old. I also know it was not treated. 

I assumed clogged fuel lines or carburetor. I have drained the tank, and carb.

I did pull the coil and bench test  and was surprised how weak of a spark it produced, so even though I suspect a fuel issue I would love to verify the coil with some resistance readings, hence my reason for wanting a workshop manual.

Alternatively if anyone here has had a reason to check their coil on a bench test, or just putting the plug against the head I would be curious what level of spark they see. I had to dim the lights in my garage to see the spark.

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You can check the resistance readings on the coil to see if its up to spec. Put your meter on OHMs touch the one small terminal with one lead and the mounting tab to the other for primary resistance it should be .1-.2 . Secondary resistance touch the spark plug boot to the small terminal set your meter to M OHM it should be 6000-10000 OHMs.

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Gas should be OK if it really just a few months old, if carb has sat for any length of time with ethanol gas you should pull the carb and clean it, it gets a jelly looking substance in the bowl and stops up the jets, but that takes longer than 5 or 6 months, yours may be OK but wouldn't hurt to check.

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Lots of modern machines with resistor leads or caps have a very thin spark, and often don't show up so good in bright light. As long as the spark is blue and not yellow it will be ok.

Sparks can be produced but then lost by shorting down the side of the spark plug porcelain if the cap or rubber boot is cracked, wet or dirty.

Spark can look fine, and jump the gap when the plug's resting on the head testing it, but not jump the gap when there is compression. It takes a lot better spark to jump through compressed air.

Stale fuel can foul sparkplugs without the engine even starting up. Just a few ignitions of old stale fuel while trying to start them, and a slow burn inside the cylinder, and a brand new plug can be fouled. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I am still fighting this thing. Had to take a couple weeks off due to both mine and the wife's car needing some attention.

Back to the MXU. This is where I am to date.

I have connected a 12v test light to the plugs for the coil, and I get a flashing light when cranking. This tells me that the ignition module, and pulser unit is functioning as intended. Just to be safe, I tested the resistance on the pulser unit and it falls within specs for the MXU 250/300. As mentioned above I'm working on a 270, and finding information on that model seems all but impossible but it seems that many of the parts for the 250/300 are the same for the 270.

I bought a Lisle coil tester, and when connecting that inline and cranking the engine I get a pulse from that as well. This really threw me off, because I get zero visible spark when touching the plug to the block.

I did buy a new coil, and installed that today and frustratingly I am in the same boat. No start, no visible spark on plug. I repeated both tests using the 12v test light on the coil plugs, and the Lisle coil tester and both produce a pulsing light when cranking.

I actually have 2 brand new plugs, and neither plug produces a spark so I'm thinking that rules out a bad/faulty plug.

I really don't want to start throwing parts at this thing, but I'm running out of options.

Any suggestions, or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

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If the spark plug cap comes off the lead try taking that off and checking the spark. The cap might have too much resistance or a short. Also have a look at night and you might see sparks running along a rubber boot or across the coil to earth.. If you have a timing light, connect it up but put a screwdriver through the pickup, then use the screwdriver as a probe looking for leaking voltage.. It'll make the timing light flash if there's an HT leak..

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I would check the primary and secondary resistances of the new coil , I have had them bad right out of the box. I would check to make sure im getting a good ground and good power to the CDI , make sure you are getting a good 12v to the coil, make sure your frame and engine ground are good, this may be extreme , but before I start buying expensive parts, I would take the side cover off and inspect the stator and pulser coil for trash or debris or anything out of the ordinary, loose bolts crimped wires etc.  I know you have probably done all these things, im just going over a list of what I would check and double check.

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17 hours ago, jpz said:

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I am still fighting this thing. Had to take a couple weeks off due to both mine and the wife's car needing some attention.

Back to the MXU. This is where I am to date.

I have connected a 12v test light to the plugs for the coil, and I get a flashing light when cranking. This tells me that the ignition module, and pulser unit is functioning as intended. Just to be safe, I tested the resistance on the pulser unit and it falls within specs for the MXU 250/300. As mentioned above I'm working on a 270, and finding information on that model seems all but impossible but it seems that many of the parts for the 250/300 are the same for the 270.

I bought a Lisle coil tester, and when connecting that inline and cranking the engine I get a pulse from that as well. This really threw me off, because I get zero visible spark when touching the plug to the block.

I did buy a new coil, and installed that today and frustratingly I am in the same boat. No start, no visible spark on plug. I repeated both tests using the 12v test light on the coil plugs, and the Lisle coil tester and both produce a pulsing light when cranking.

I actually have 2 brand new plugs, and neither plug produces a spark so I'm thinking that rules out a bad/faulty plug.

I really don't want to start throwing parts at this thing, but I'm running out of options.

Any suggestions, or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

jpz, Do you have the service manual, if so take a meter and test individual component, you should be able to do it with ease. any component that fall out of tolerance will need to be change

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The tester I have is not used in place of the coil, it is used in line with the coil. Below is a pic of the unit I have.

image.png.df01a67ff4f43416621b642daa2f9650.png

You basically plug it in inline and it will flash (mirror the ignition signal) indicating the coil is functioning. When I do this, I get a pulsing signal on the tester, but I am never able to see an actual spark on the plug when touching it to the head.

I will check the resistance again on the coil(s), old and new. Does anyone have a source specifically for the MXU 270? I found a workshop manual for the Mongoose 250/300 which is appears to be a very similar machine, and that's what I have been using to help me troubleshoot.

The part that keeps bothering me as I continue to look into the ignition is the quad was running fine, was put away for the season and never ran again. That just seems more "fuel" than "ignition" in my experience, but I would think if it was a fuel issue I would at least be able to get it to sputter having drained the tank and carb and put in new gas. I get no sign of life out of it when trying to start, and no visible spark on the spark plug when touching to the head and cranking over.

Thanks all for your continued help.

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8 hours ago, Pod said:

jpz, Do you have the service manual, if so take a meter and test individual component, you should be able to do it with ease. any component that fall out of tolerance will need to be change

I have "almost" the service manual. I can not locate a 270 service manual, but I have found the service manual for the 250/300 which seems to use much of the same parts. However, I would love to get a hold of a PDF for the actual 270 for peace of mind if nothing else.

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Cdi ignition coils have very low primary resistance, from about point one of an ohm up to about point four of an ohm.

Twelve volt ignition coil primary resistance is higher, from about one ohm to three ohms.

Are you sure the earth between the coil mount, and the engine are good..

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7 hours ago, Mech said:

Cdi ignition coils have very low primary resistance, from about point one of an ohm up to about point four of an ohm.

Twelve volt ignition coil primary resistance is higher, from about one ohm to three ohms.

Are you sure the earth between the coil mount, and the engine are good..

I plan to check grounds today.

You confused me a bit with the coil statement. Are you saying the MXU is 12v or CDI? I believe it is a 12v system.

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I tied looking it up to see exactly what it had, you are right, not much information on them, none of the online parts houses I use listed any parts for it. Are you using a coil that is specific for the Kymco or just a coil.  Mech thats news to me I thought all of the newer bikes had CDI systems, maybe they are going back to the basics. 

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1 hour ago, Gwbarm said:

I tied looking it up to see exactly what it had, you are right, not much information on them, none of the online parts houses I use listed any parts for it. Are you using a coil that is specific for the Kymco or just a coil.  Mech thats news to me I thought all of the newer bikes had CDI systems, maybe they are going back to the basics. 

It's frustrating how little info is available isn't it?

The coil I bought was listed for Kymco 250/270/300 ATV's. It looks almost identical to the original one.

I did some more testing today. I followed every ground I could find and cleaned up the connection.

I installed the original coil since the new one produced no improvement.

I checked resistance on both plugs that I have, both read around 6.0 ohms.

I pulled the spark plug boot from the original coil, and touched that close to the engine while cranking and actually saw a spark.

I checked resistance on the spark plug boot, and see about 5 ohms.

Installed the boot, and plug, no spark when touching to engine and cranking.

I reduced the spark plug gap to .4mm and still see no spark.

I placed a phillips head screwdriver in the coil boot, and will see a spark jump from the spark plug to the block while cranking.

So I can verify that my coil is producing spark, however it will not produce spark across the gap of a spark plug.

Where I'm torn now is do I possibly have 2 bad coils? Or is there another component to the ignition that generates the voltage to the coil?

I have 12 volts constant to the power of the coil when the ignition is on, and I see pulsing voltage when cranking.

I hate to buy another coil, or any other part just to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, but I'm really at a loss here.

 

Thanks to all who continue to help me with this. I appreciate it.

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Yes I believe your MXU is a 12 volt ignition..

Some of the kawasaki use a 12 volt system. The specs you quoted for resistance, were too high for a cdi system, so the bike you were quoting for (the 200 kawasaki), is a 12 volt system. Then, the measurement from your coil is too high resistance to be a cdi coil unless it's shorted out, so it seems your bike is 12 volt ignition, like a kawasaki. Your resistance reading though is a little low which could mean it's partly shorted inside. That would make it draw a higher current than intended, and it would have a weak spark.

Try using a set of jumpers and try the coil on 12 v.. it should throw a good spark with it's cap off the lead.

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  I was just looking at the PDF Mech sent, there are 2 things I see that could be problematic, the pulser coil, is it in tact and putting out proper voltage, and the ignition unit itself, there are resistance numbers listed in the PDF for checking that unit, they generally either spark or don't spark, but those 2 things might be worth checking.

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Hey guys, first thanks for the continued help. Second, my posts all still need admin approval before actually being posted which is a bummer, because my most recent post (a few up) was actually posted before all of your most recent suggestions.

Let me know your thoughts on what I most recently posted.

I did test the resistance on the original coil and it shows 2.9 on the primary side and 13.4 (without the cap) on the secondary side. Both of these number are below the info in Mech's PDF (thanks for adding that), however are they "below" enough to call out the coil as the problem?

I did buy a replacement coil (cheap one off Amazon), and the primary side tested 4.2, with the secondary being 9.8 (without the cap). I'm thinkin the new coil is junk based off the very low secondary testing.

 

All the tests done in the above post were with the original coil, for S&G's I'm going to repeat the same tests with the new coil, but I'm starting to wonder exactly what role the ignition unit and/or pulser play in the ignition equation? Do either one of them dictate the voltage going to the coil? I'm thinking I have too low of voltage going to the coil. That the only reason I can explain being able to create a spark jump without the boot installed as well as using a screwdriver to the block with the boot installed.

I will be traveling today, and won't be able to look at the quad again until Saturday night but wanted to post this to hopefully get admin approval and have my post visible to you guys while I am gone.

 

Thanks again for all the help, and for posting the PDF for this bike.

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Also, any thoughts on the fact that I can get a very weak spark from the coil if I remove the boot and touch the wire to the block? Same result if I install the boot, insert a screwdriver and touch the screwdriver to the block. I get a very weak spark.

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You need a good 12 volt supply to the ignition coil. Without any voltage drop from the battery to the coil when it's under load. The load should be about four amps.. A car headlight bulb would be enough load to test the 12 power supply to the coil.

The ignition unit shorts the coil's negative terminal to earth for a few milliseconds before it wants a spark, then disconnects the coil from earth at the instant it want's a spark. The ignition unit also controls the ignition timing, and in that bike it has a wire coming from the gear change indicator unit to the ignition unit which they say to check for no spark situations. (I see you do get a spark now if the spark plug lead's cap is off..  That's good. ).

The ignition unit has to have a good earth so it can earth the coil properly. The unit's earth needs checking for voltage drop under load. A car headlight in the place of the coil will be a good load.

Since you do in fact have a spark though, I'd suggest you leave the spark plugs cap off and use a split pin or a bit of bent wire poked down the end of the HT lead and connected to the spark plug, to check for spark and try to start it. It's possible you are using a resistor plug and a resistor cap, and possibly a resistor lead on the coil..  Each of which makes the spark just a little thinner..

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