What Winch To Buy?

[rockwell16]

There is a huge debate in winches being bought for ATV's lately here is my opinion

well first the debate is what pound winch to get what brand and what to go with metal corded or the Synthetic winch i would go with a 2000 pound warn synthetic synthetic because the metal cord over time frays and the little metal wire poke out and stab the crap out of your hands and can even cut you really good if your not careful I ride with riding gloves but i don't use metal cord because i don't want to have to put on leather gloves just to use my winch on a trail synthetic doesn't fray and is easier on the winch its self not as much friction when unspooling let me know what you guys use what brand weight rating and synthetic or metal cord

[pilsboy]

if it can help ppl out.. make sure to know first what will be the use of your winch.. once in a while get out of trouble or work around the house/property?? then also the use of your atv.,.. taking a ride every other day/week or less ? always good question on looking on paying/investing.. bought myself a champion on from local store here... but another garage was advising to pay for bigger brands cause they can be repaired... parts are about the price of the winch i bought(2 year warranty) so .. thats my words.. thinking and do your "shopping/research".

sorry if i post a lot later then original post but if it can help a little 

[Ironworker709]

i know i might get flamed for this..but

I use the harbor freight winches on my jeep,trailer and my old truck too..never had an issue with them at all

I am thinking of buying one with synthetic line for my 2001 Big bear 4x4 to have for just in case situations

[Gwbarm]

Nothing wrong with Harbour freight winches I have 2 that I've had for 20 years, before the Badland brand they sell now , never had a problem with either one. They are not used much but when I need them they always work.

[JustRandy]

The Badlands winches are the best in my opinion, particularly the 5000lb UTV winch which has a wide spool and fast reel-in speed. 

I mainly use the gear ratios to decide on a winch because lower gears not only mean slower reel-in speeds but also wastes the battery churning the grease in the gears.  Lower gears typically mean cheaper (ie crappier) winch because the manufacturer can use a smaller motor to achieve the same pulling power.

So a 5000lb winch with 100:1 gears is better than a 5000lb winch with 300:1 gears.

[davefrombc]

The winch with the lower ratio ( higher speed) will require a bigger motor pulling a lot more amperage out of the battery than the one with the higher ratio. It may have a higher line speed unloaded, but it puts a LOT more strain  on the battery and charging  system when  loaded.  There are a lot of other factors that determine which is the best winch than the gear ratio.

Edited November 20, 2022 by davefrombc

[JustRandy]

I've actually done tests pulling a train of quads with the brakes locked up a hill and seeing which winch kills a big deep cycle marine battery first.  So I can say with certainty the winch with the higher gears (higher line speed) will do the same work with less drain on the battery.  And the difference was quite extreme.  The winch with the tall gears had battery to spare while the winch with low gears couldn't complete the task.

I had to know because a camping trailer I built used a winch and battery with no charging system that lowered itself down the side of a mountain for camping then needed enough battery capacity to lift itself back out after the weekend, so I had to find the most efficient winch.

Yes the larger motor pulls more amps, but the motor also doesn't have to turn as many revolutions to wind in the cable, so the net effect is less amps used in total.  The motor with lower gears must turn more revolutions and each revolution loses efficiency due to churning the grease in the gears.

A winch with 300:1 will turn 2x more than 100:1 to do the same work and each extra turn is wasting amps by churning grease in 3 sets of planetary gears.  I've even gone as far as to add oil to the grease to reduce viscosity.

[Mech]

Why do people need such hugely powerful winches on quads that only weight a few hundred kilo..

My sons have 4000 Lb winches on their utes, and only a 7000 Lb winch on the work trucks, which have tons of honey onboard . They never even strain their winches.. And yeah, they get stuck to the hubs in mud, and go up steep hills, and haul the trucks around sideways sometimes.. 

Is this some bragging rites thing, or perhaps pe*** envy..haha..  "well my winch is bigger than yours at least"..

[JustRandy]

1 hour ago, Mech said:

Why do people need such hugely powerful winches on quads that only weight a few hundred kilo..

LOL!  Well for me it's not about the power but the large spool to carry a long cable.  I could make do with a 1000lb winch if one came with the large spool, and if I needed more power I'd just use a snatch block (ie pulley).

That and the 2000-3000lb variety are kinda clunky in my opinion.  I have one on the back of my quad to pull in reverse and to tow logs.

I'd like to find a super-lightweight 500lb winch for my sport quad, but I abandoned that search 10 yrs ago.  The smallest I could find was 1500 and it wasn't really that light.

[Mech]

Yeah good point... A short cable could be really annoying sometimes. I suppose then that the rope cables are better for that.. Especially the flat web type ones seem to have long cables.

[JustRandy]

I think whatever rope I used I'd still want the larger spool just to have a bigger one than the other guy :p

That and when I get stuck it seems the closest tree is often more than 50ft away.

I found some old pics.

Here it is spooled up with 100ft of smaller-but-still-sufficient cable:

 

Looks like it weighs 28lbs.  The springs are just something I made to hold the cable flat against the spool.

That's the best winch I could find 10 yrs ago.  The line speed is super fast, the line release mechanism is nice, the spool is pretty big, it has all the power an atv frame could handle, doesn't draw a lot of amps, and it sounds a bit like an RC car which is kinda cool.

[Mech]

So you do say a long one is better.. 

I knew that was what it was..  

Boys !!

[JustRandy]

Yep, long and skinny is better than short and fat.

My neighbor Mr Beanie McWeenie goes to the dealership and demands the biggest of whatever they sell.  He drives a giant diesel truck just to go to the corner store for a beer several times a day and I swear his UTV has 3 rows of seats; it looks like a station wagon without the body.  And the trailer he uses to haul it makes it look like a toy.  If he has a winch I'm sure it's powered by a big block V8.  You'd think after a while he'd realize he's sending all the wrong messages.

[Mech]

The boys work truck has a rope cable, which is sort of like a braid but without a center core to it. It lays flat on the drum, which presumably means you can get more on there, and that the number of layers of cable on the drum don't reduce the pulling power like a nearly full drum of steel cable suffers from..

All second hand experience though.. I've never owned a winch.. I try to avoid getting stuck. And, I just use ropes and levers and simple stuff like that if I do occasionally want to move something heavy.

[JustRandy]

I don't have any experience with anything other than steel cable, but I've used winches for lots of things other than getting unstuck.  I used a winch to raise the trusses for a steel building I built.  I used a winch to raise a tree stand.  I often use winches to pull on trees, like if one happens to sit down on my chainsaw bar.  Sometimes I cut a tree halfway and use a winch to pull it down in the direction I want it to go.  I built a dump trailer to haul dirt that uses a winch and a pole to raise the bed and I dug a whole pond with that contraption.  And of course I built that camping trailer with a winch.  There are more uses than I can think of off the top of my head.

Usually when I'm stuck it's because I have a lot of weight in the trailer and one wheel happens to sink in a hole or something like that.  I just need a shove to get rolling.

[Mech]

The flat braid looks like good stuff.. it's easy on the hands.. Non rust, non snag, light, flexible, could be tied in a knot if the hook broke off or anything.. might not like sunlight I guess.. but it's probably cheap and easy to change.

I use a thing we call a wire strainer. It's for tightening wire fences, and it operates on a chain. I pull small stumps with that and have used it before to drag things around and lift motors out..  More effort than a winch, but that's why I'm so damn fit and healthy for an old guy.. Haha. I like work, and reckon getting in a sweat is good for us.. No gyms here in the country.

And I use wedges for felling trees..  That way they don't fall on your bike.

Your dump trailer sounds good. I could use something like that on my driveway.

[JustRandy]

I've always been meaning to try the synthetic line but just never got around to it I guess.  Maybe it was too expensive or seemed kinda fragile.  Those nylon ratchet straps tend not to last long.  They always get a tear, usually close to the hook so I can't just cut a little off and use the rest lol.

Steel cables really do suck.  They can't be tied in knots, sharp bends kink them, and worst of all they fray and the wires poke out like needles ready to stab me in the hand.  But I've never had one break and almost never need to change them unless there's just too many wires sticking out.  And they are the engineers' choice for building bridges, maybe because the plastic cables would be too bouncy.  I guess elasticity was another concern of mine: if they break do they recoil like sling shots?

For tightening fences I would park the atv with the brakes on and hit a button.  With a steel cable I could get precise force, but feel like the plastic would stretch making precise movements difficult.  I'm just guessing though.

I use winches more for work than for getting unstuck from playing, which often involves things the designers of the plastic line didn't have in mind while designing line.

The dump trailer is a 3500lb axle from tractor supply with atv tires.  I originally used a swing arm from a quad but that didn't last long carrying a ton of dirt lol.  Many things I tried didn't last long, including the frame until I used three 4x4 timbers for the base.  Then 5 or 6 of those 3 inch strap hinges from the hardware store.  The pole is some kind of threaded tube about 2.5-3 inches and 5-6 ft long.  I welded up a big pulley for the top and threaded it on.  I like the threads so I can add sections if I want.  Right now it's just perfect to drive under the rolled up door of the garage without hitting the door, but I can add another foot or so if needed to raise the bed extra high for really sticky mud that doesn't want to fall out.

The winch is wired to a 3 pronged electrical house plug that plugs into an outlet on the quad.  I unplug the rear winch and plug in the trailer winch so I can use the same controls for either.  I always change my winch plugs to house plugs so I can use extension cords.  House outlets usually come in pairs so I wired the other plug to the battery so I can plug in a charger or another battery very easily.

I've hauled many many many tons of dirt with that trailer.  And firewood each year.

I use wedges for trees too, but sometimes I need a winch or at least a long rope to tug on.  For instance I need to take out a large tree that I don't want to fall on other trees, so my plan is to make a cut halfway up the tree about halfway through the tree then pull the top down from the safety of the ground.  If everything goes as planned the top of the tree will ease over and hang from the hing-wood.  Then I can lop the branches off before tearing the rest to the ground with the power of the winch.  I've been pondering that job for years now.

I always advise people to stay active as long as they can because it seems like once they stop then they never start up again.

[Gwbarm]

I have one of the smaller ones shown in your photos, it always works but it seems to really work hard pulling no where close to its limit , especially if your loading an ATV that won't roll, which I do occasionally, I am going to get one of the larger ones, im always afraid the cable is going to break, thanks for the info and photos.

[Mech]

I'm not sure about the stretch Randy.. some modern synthetics, especially if it's braid cored braid,  are pretty near non stretch. It's hard to see if the trucks cable/cord is stretching in use.

And whiplash... even a chain or steel cable will flick back if they break under strain, and they are a lot harder and heavier, so the damage from the synthetic might be less than a steel cable breaking..

Those snags that get your hands though would be enough to put me off these days..

[davefrombc]

Steel cable winch line can be deadly in recoil when it snaps under load. Chain  can recoil some and kill or maim, but not nearly as much as steel cable.. Synthetic line recoil isn't quite so dangerous because it is much lighter,  but in the wrong circumstances it can still  kill. You can get synthetic winch line with insanely  high breaking strength  but the down sides are the price and they must be kept clean. A lot of hard core off roaders use synthetic line because of its light weight  and ability to  have a much longer line on the same size winch drum.. I stick with steel cable because it is far less maintenance to  keep it in working order, and  cheaper when it needs replacing.

 

[Mech]

Oh ok.. so what's the problem with dirt on the synthetic Dave.. abrasion ?

And yeah, steel cable whips and does a lot of damage in a line.. chain bunches up and becomes a cannonball and just hits one small target.. but it hits it hard.

[JustRandy]

6 hours ago, Gwbarm said:

I have one of the smaller ones shown in your photos, it always works but it seems to really work hard pulling no where close to its limit , especially if your loading an ATV that won't roll, which I do occasionally, I am going to get one of the larger ones, im always afraid the cable is going to break, thanks for the info and photos.

Those are the el cheapo variety that work ok for light use.  I actually have a box of broken ones.  It's the transmission that fails.  The only good thing about them is the price and they're small.  I used to find the 5000lb ones on ebay for under $100.  And whoever sells the badlands brand used to have black friday deals or coupons.  Not sure if they still do.

I have 3 of them and wouldn't mind having another as a spare.  As soon as I get one I pull the transmission off and inspect the grease situation.  Sometimes at the factory they don't put enough in or I don't like the looks of it so I repack it with good grease.  I've heard good things about bel-ray waterproof grease.

 

[JustRandy]

Good points Dave and Mech.

I'm not sure about the stretch either.  I saw a Modern Marvels program on History's youtube channel about synthetic ropes exceeding the strength of steel.  They showed one being tested and seemed like the breaking was fairly violent.

Here it is.  It should be cued up.

 

I've always heard steel cables are dangerous but haven't witnessed it in my experience.  I have a laboratory press with a gauge on it that I used to break a brand new cable.  If memory serves it seems like it more or less stretched apart, uneventfully, right at the force the manufacturer said it would.  The only other time was my dump trailer cable broke because is was so frayed and flattened.  I suspect that if a cable is worn pretty bad then when it breaks it won't recoil as bad as a new cable.  So I feel like as long as I'm well under the capacity of the cable then I should never have anything to worry about.  Usually in engineering they use the 20% rule, so if a cable is rated at 1000lb, they never subject it to more than 200lb.  That's why winch cables that come with new winches are the size they are, which well exceeds what the winch is capable of.

But I have no experience with plastic.  My only experience is nylon rope and nylon ratchet straps, which are notorious for breaking, especially when they get kinda old.  Maybe the oils evaporate from the plastic?

I try to keep my steel cables oiled.  I just dump oil on the spool and let it soak in.  That way when the cable bends the strands don't grind on each other.

[davefrombc]

Dirt is the big enemy of the synthetic lines because of the abrasion it can cause between the fibers  of the rope/ tape. I  don't know anyone using  synthetic lines but there's enough information on them  online for anyone who cares to research them  before deciding whether it is to their advantage to  go that route or not.  Randy , be glad you've never experienced the destruction a recoiling cable can  cause.  The line doesn't have to  fail to do it . The point it is attached to is more often the projectile, but the line itself can  sever a limb or worse if it catches a victim in recoil. There  are enough pictures of what can happen when  pulling a stuck vehicle by the hitch ball on the net for example .  There's a lot more to winching and vehicle recovery than  just hooking a line to something that looks solid and pulling.

[JustRandy]

I've heard a lot of stories about cables breaking.  I've seen guys drape carpet over the taught winch line to slow it down should it break.  But I think as long as the cable is sized properly for the job then there isn't much to worry about. 

You said "what can happen when  pulling a stuck vehicle by the hitch ball on the net for example".  That to me says people have no idea of the force they are putting on the cable because a vehicle yanking is impossible to know.  Whereas a winch has a certain strength that can be matched to the cable.  Those are two different scenarios.

I think if you know what your winch is capable of and you size your cable and gear with a factor of safety to match the winch then there isn't much to worry about.

For towing vehicles I made a cable with a spring that must be stretched out before the cable becomes taught.  It helps absorb some of the shocks.

 

[Ironworker709]

1 hour ago, JustRandy said:

Good points Dave and Mech.

I'm not sure about the stretch either.  I saw a Modern Marvels program on History's youtube channel about synthetic ropes exceeding the strength of steel.  They showed one being tested and seemed like the breaking was fairly violent.

Here it is.  It should be cued up.

 

I've always heard steel cables are dangerous but haven't witnessed it in my experience.  I have a laboratory press with a gauge on it that I used to break a brand new cable.  If memory serves it seems like it more or less stretched apart, uneventfully, right at the force the manufacturer said it would.  The only other time was my dump trailer cable broke because is was so frayed and flattened.  I suspect that if a cable is worn pretty bad then when it breaks it won't recoil as bad as a new cable.  So I feel like as long as I'm well under the capacity of the cable then I should never have anything to worry about.  Usually in engineering they use the 20% rule, so if a cable is rated at 1000lb, they never subject it to more than 200lb.  That's why winch cables that come with new winches are the size they are, which well exceeds what the winch is capable of.

But I have no experience with plastic.  My only experience is nylon rope and nylon ratchet straps, which are notorious for breaking, especially when they get kinda old.  Maybe the oils evaporate from the plastic?

I try to keep my steel cables oiled.  I just dump oil on the spool and let it soak in.  That way when the cable bends the strands don't grind on each other.

Good Points Randy...

I have been an International Ironworker since 1979,so yes..i have seen some wire rope failures and they are far from pretty..Rigging and heavy loads movement are one of our major specialties.

I could write a book here on rigging safety and do's and dont's..but i'll try to be short n sweet

wire ropes and cables wear from the inside out.,, completely naked to the eye..any kinks or bends weakens them too..BUT!...if the individual ropes in it are NOT flattened,it is still good to go..this is why we go through very stringent and long hours of training and experience.to be the qualified competent individual to make the decision to use it..or take it out of service

Nylon rigging becomes damaged from UV rays from the sun and weather worn when used outside,when they become a lighter color then original,they are taken out of service

Nylon and synthetic will stretch in a lot of abuse too,which weakens them

Sharp edges are a big no no,.. especially in synthetic and nylon...always use a softener on any sharp/square corners.even if that corner is not sharp,it can still cut and damage/weaken that area of the rigging.

Nylon and synthetic can burn itself when choked through itself when overload or snatched,the best practice is to use a shackle in the choked eye,keeping the pin side of the shackle in the dead end of the choke,so the working side does not roll the pin out.

Nylon and synthetic failures can be just as dangerous as anything else when there is a shackle or any type of steel rigging attached to it,not long ago a girl was killed instantly in her truck where someone was pulling her out of a hole with nylon rigging and the rigged point on the truck pulling failed from a snatch and jerk,,the shackle on the end flew through her windshield and killed her instantly..nylon and synthetic will stretch like a rubber band when overloaded

The general sandards of rigging by ANSI standards is 5 times the WLL before failure,so rigging with a WLL of 1000 lbs is supposed to handle a load of 5000 lbs before complete failure..BUT,,just becasue it does not fail and overloaded,,does NOT mean it is still rated for the WLL,,it is now much weaker....

If i had more time right now..i could go more into details about a lot of no no's i see people do in 4 wheeling rigging..right now we are heading to freinds house to help put up a pole barn

One of them is the general say that if using synthetic rope is to use a Hause fairlead...i totaly disagree,that creates serious friction and heat,i always use a roller fairlead on any type of rigging

[Mech]

Interesting about the wire cables there Ironworker.. 

Nylon does stretch and deteriorate in sunlight, but many of the new synthetics are uv resistant and very non stretch. They use synthetic cable for some yacht standing rigging these days..

[JustRandy]

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

I could write a book here on rigging safety and do's and dont's

If you did I would read it.  I appreciate you taking time to write what you have.  I feel like my intuitions were pretty close.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

wire ropes and cables wear from the inside out

So oiling them is the right thing to do?  I try to get oil to soak into the cable so when it bends and flexes it doesn't wear itself so much.  The downside is the oil attacks dirt which acts as sandpaper, though I'm not sure how much dirt finds its way inside the cable.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

if the individual ropes in it are NOT flattened,it is still good to go

Yep the flattened part is where mine broke.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

when they become a lighter color then original,they are taken out of service

I have noticed the color change and associated it with a weak strap.  There is also a sound change when strummed like a guitar string.  The pitch is higher like dry leaves.  My intuition is some oil evaporated from the plastic leaving it brittle.

1 hour ago, Ironworker709 said:

Nylon and synthetic will stretch in a lot of abuse too,which weakens them

Yeah that was my big worry.  I don't want something that stretches.

2 hours ago, Ironworker709 said:

The general sandards of rigging by ANSI standards is 5 times the WLL before failure,so rigging with a WLL of 1000 lbs is supposed to handle a load of 5000 lbs before complete failure..BUT,,just becasue it does not fail and overloaded,,does NOT mean it is still rated for the WLL,,it is now much weaker.

So it's like the torque-to-yield head bolts then.  Once the bolts are stretched to their yield point they will no longer apply the same clamping force and must be replaced.  I wonder how anyone can tell a cable has been overloaded?  I guess that explains the 5x safety factor.

2 hours ago, Ironworker709 said:

One of them is the general say that if using synthetic rope is to use a Hause fairlead...i totaly disagree,that creates serious friction and heat,i always use a roller fairlead on any type of rigging

Me too.  I thought the hawse recommendation was odd.

Given what I've learned so far I think I'm stinking with steel.  Plastic may be ok for recreational use but I do too many unconventional things with winches to trust plastic.  It could slip off the side of a pulley and rip itself apart.  One time dragging a log through the woods may destroy it.

[Gwbarm]

Im like you I was very interested in the synthetic rope , but I think I will stick to steel  I never know what I might be pulling next.

[Placido]

Definitely an appropriate winch for an ATV, it depends on the weight of the vehicle. For most ATVs, 200 pounds is enough and if the cable is also synthetic, it will be better.

I would buy this

https://www.amazon.com/RUGCEL-2000-lb-ATV-Electric-Winch/dp/B07V8JZK5K/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1WRB9ZKBA1Y7H&keywords=winch&qid=1687749864&sprefix=winch%2Caps