2006 trx350te Honda rancher 350 es clutch plates

[Mech]

If the genuine honda manual isn't in the manuals section let me know and I'll upload it.

And yeah, we used to be told "check, recheck, and then check it again".

[Mech]

And Ej, if you are pulling that cover off again, don't just rip it off, loosen all the bolts one turn free first and tap the cover so it only moves forwards about one mill, then check if the wheels turn in gear, if they do, then something in there is only about one mill out of place, likely a shim or washer. If it doesn't come free after the one mill then pull it off by five mills and check, then pull it right off.. It's possible that one of those washers could be enough to do it, even if it takes five mills to come right. A big washer where a small one should be could rest on a shoulder or something instead of siting down inside it..

Hang in there buddy..  you've done so much already.. 

[Gwbarm]

Good advise Mech, i had been wondering if it might have been the extra washer that was talked about putting in because of the damaged crank threads ,but wasnt sure if it was actually put in or not

[Mech]

I don't think that would be it because it would only push on the clutch release thingy and not jamb things up.  I don't think. Can't think what would do it though. I've been looking in the parts diagrams and the manual..

I see in the honda manual that that nut is only torqued to 80..  It could be that the non-genuine manual has other wrong directions..

[Ejwill]

I have the washers in right places, I have the gears on as shown in photo. The tires will turn when jacked up . They have resistance when in what is first gear is heavy as I shift up in gears it gets easier to rotate the tires. In fifth gear it turns fairly easily. The lower fears are pretty hard to turn I think this should be the way it should be. I think I confused you about the tires . I can turn them when it’s jacked up. But when I crank it up and put it in first the tires will not move under it’s own power, other words if it was on the ground it would not move. Sorry about the confusion,I didn’t explain it correctly. The gear cover went on easily. There was no binding there. I’ll check the voltage. I’ll check the voltage today. Ther should be 12 to 13 volts goin into the  plug for the motor, right? If I unplug the connector for the motor and check the voltage across the two prongs I should get the voltage going to the motor? Electrical is way out of my league I’ll try but can’t promise you I know what I’m doing. Again the tires will rotate with lessening resistance as I shift up in the gears. The tire will not turn under it’s own power.

[Gwbarm]

From what you describe it sounds like the transmission is working properly, i was just sitting here pondering over what it might be, from the symptoms it sounds like the clutch is not working, disengaged, if i had a manual clutch and pulled the  hand lever it would do exactly as you describe. 

[Mech]

Ok.. Sorry about that panic.. My bad. That had been my initial impression, that you were confirming the wheels had resistance when it was in gear.  All good.

This place gets confusing sometimes.. But your feed back has been very good I gotta say Ej. That was my mistake.

Yes it sounds like the shift clutch is slipping. It probably needs adjusting after being disturbed.

And that way of checking the power supply won't do Ej. You should/would get 12 volts at the end of that lead, but you'd get 12 volts there even if there was a bad connection or the control unit wasn't letting enough power through. The gauge uses so little power that a bad connection would let enough power through to run the gauge when the motor is disconnected, but when there's a heavy load on the circuit, and not enough current can get through a bad connection, then the motor uses it all up and the voltage drops. You have to check the voltage with the shift motor connected. You can perhaps back-probe the connector, that's use two pins pushed in the back of the connector plug where the wires go in, or use two pins to pierce the wires as near the motor as possible. Use a bit of silicon or vaseline to seal the holes after.

 

[Ejwill]

Ok, I’ll give it a try. Wish I could get it straightened out soon I go to a neuro surgeon on the tenth. So depending on what happens with him, Will determine if I can continue working on this thing for a while. If I have surgery maybe I can get one off my grandsons to do the work if I tell him what to do. That will probably never happen, they are too busy with school and sports. But there’s a change it may work out with them if there’s money involved. Thanks again.

[Ejwill]

I have got things confused again. When I got everything together I cranked the machine and shifted into first and the motor did not turn the tires. I did not move. I jacked it back up and using the manual shifter and the electric shifter was able to turn the tires by hand. I could shift from neutral to first with the electric shifter alone as well as the manual shifter alone and back to neutral with each. I could shift to other gears with electric shifter by using the manual shifter to slightly back the shifter up until I felt a light click, then press the up shift button and it would go another gear. The tires turned by hand in each gear getting easier as I went up in the gears to fifth gear I could come down in the gears using the electric shifter doing the same. Could tell the gears were changing because the resistance was changing. For some reason it will not go under it’s own power I know it shifts into 1st because I can feel when using both electric and manual shifters. For some reason it just doesn’t move under its own power. Could it be in the starter clutch( centrifugal clutch) isn’t it the first one that picks up the motion from motor to wheels. I’m just guessing I don’t have a clue. Thanks Y’all for replying.

[Mech]

Have you adjusted the shift clutch ?  There's an adjuster on the front cover..

[Ejwill]

I have not adjusted it, I’ll do that I don’t know if I read it or if one of you told me. I believe you turn the stud clockwise until resistance then back off a quarter turn. Not sure if that’s correct or not.

[Gwbarm]

Counterclockwise until resistance is felt then clockwise 1/8 of a turn should do it

[Ejwill]

Ok, adjusted the clutch still nothing with the motor cranked the tires will still not turn under it’s own power. I know it’s going in gear I can feel it when it shifts and there’s a difference in the resistance when turning the tires by hand. I can shift up to fifth the higher the gear the easier the wheel turns by hand. But the motor will not turn the wheels under it’s own power. Thanks for giving me the correct adjustment for the clutch. Just don’t know. What turns the transmission inside the motor housing. When the motor cranks doesn’t the clutches turn, which turns the gears inside the housing - to the shaft to the differential. If so something has to be wrong with the clutch doesn’t it. I’m just guessing I have never worked on a motor before. Dropped a complete motor in a truck once but that wasn’t as involved as this. Thanks for the help.

[Mech]

The engine turns the centrifugal clutch hub till the revs are high enough for the shoes to start turning the centrifugal clutches drum, that drum with it's gear turns the shift clutch which is mounted on the end of the gearboxes input shaft. 

Earlier on you had the clutches and the gearbox all working.. it had resistance to turning the wheels when it was pushed forwards due to the sprag/one-way clutch, and the wheels turned easier when they were turned backwards..  That means that at that stage everything was working. There was a solid drive through the shift clutch at that stage. Every higher gear had less resistance so it was getting all the gears. It's still getting all the gears.

Either the centrifugal clutch is playing up now, which is very unlikely, or the shift clutch is playing up. The shift clutch should be locked up solid except when the shift lever is being moved and it's operating the clutch operating mechanism which is made up of two plates and three balls. As long as that clutch adjustment felt free, with no resistance at the place where you adjusted it to, then the shift clutch should be locked up and the wheels should be trying to turn the engine in forwards gears when you try to turn them.

Since there is no wheels trying to turn the engine, and there's no engine trying to turn the wheels, I'd have to surmise that the shift clutch needs re-visiting.

 

[Mech]

When you get that cover off Ej, don't dismantle anything else till we've had a talk about what's in there..  I'm getting worried about the threads on the shafts..  And the problem might not need them undoing again.

[Gwbarm]

And if you could post some photos it might be helpful, you can take them with your phone.

[Mech]

Yup, photos might be useful.

I'd got the impression it was all good just before the cover went on though..  I was thinking the clutch mechanism might be misplaced.. not that I know how it can be.

I also suspect the instructions for adjusting the clutch might be wrong.. I know it's what the book says, but there's no mention of the lock nut being left hand thread..  Which means they are saying to back it out to the case, then in a quarter turn. If that's how it's meant to be then they could just make it so it's a fixed distance from the case..  It won't be the problem here, but I think the adjuster needs screwing in till it touches then out a 1/4.. 

[Ejwill]

So back the nut on the adjustment shaft out and screw the shaft in until it touches then back off 1/4 turn on the shaft then hold the shaft there and tighten the nut. I’ll try that and see what happens. Well, I did the adjustment like you said or as I understood. And the motor still will not turn the wheels. I shift up to first and can’t really turn the back tires forward by hand it’s real tight. They also won’t turn with the motor. I guess I’ll take the cover off like you said but not remove the lock nuts and clutches at this time. Will let you know when I get it off. Thursday will be spent at neuro surgeon’s. It’s about an hour and fifteen minutes from here. Hope to avoid surgery but got to have some relief. But I’ll get what I can done tomorrow morning by eleven or eleven thirty it’s about too hot to stay out there. I bought a battery powered ratchet which speeds things up a lot. Thanks again.

[Mech]

Good man Ej. It must be getting mighty frustrating by now, especially with the stiff neck, but hang in there. We'll get this thing fixed.. Even if it does take a grandson. Or two.

Yeah that's how I think the adjustment must be meant to be. It won't be the problem at the moment because doing it the way the book says would be sure to have the clutch release mechanism well away from the clutch release bearing.

When you get the cover off the first thing to do is turn the centrifugal clutch drum and see if it turns the shift clutch and shaft, then put it into gear and see if turning the drum turns the wheels. It should. If it doesn't then you'll see the outer clutch basket of the shift clutch turning but the inner bit won't be turning, which means the clutch plates are slipping . If it does try to turn the wheels then it must be putting the cover on that's causing the problem, and the only thing I can think of that would do that is if the release mechanism isn't sitting right.. Hopefully that's all it is.

Good luck with the work, and the Doc.

[Ejwill]

Ok, I got the cover off and turned the centrifugal clutch counter clockwise and the change clutch turned clockwise. It was in gear at this time and the wheels did not turn as they were supposed to. I can move them forward by hand but not with the centrifugal clutch. Sorry I know you thought it may be something simple, but that’s not how it goes with me. Thanks for the help, if you know something else I can try I’ll do it.

[Ejwill]

Ok, change to my reply #170, I turned the centrifugal clutch and the change clutch outer basket turned but the shaft did not turn, the outer portion turned clockwise, but the shaft with the lock nut on it did not turn. Nor did the tires. Hope this isn’t totally confusing if so I’ll try again. Thanks again and again and again etc. So give me the bad news I’m used to it by now.

[Mech]

Well the shift clutch is slipping, and since it's not being operated by the clutch actuator mechanism(the bit with the three balls), then it must be something in it's assembly.

First thing would be to have a look at how the clutch plates look, looking in through the slots in the clutch basket. Perhaps you'll see that all the plates look loose, or perhaps you'll see that only the outer most one seems clamped, which might give a clue about what is wrong. Possibly that outer plate and the shudder spring are seating badly.. I'd try to see what it was before pulling it to bits. Then, I'm not sure it possible but I'd try to undo the four bolts and get that bearing plate out off the outside. If that could be got off it would free up the plates and you might be able to wriggle the spring or outer clutch plate into it's right place.. or something. To get that plate out you have to loosen all four bolts a bit at a time and that might be tricky with the centrifugal in the way. Be careful undoing those bolts because if you loosen three off and leave the last one with spring tension on it still, it can snap the pillar the springs fit onto off down at the bottom where it is attached to the plate in the back there..  serious.. they break off easy.

Have a go at that and see if you can't get things into a better place.. and hopefully not have to pull the centrifugal again.

[Ejwill]

I’ll give it a shot . I was thinking if the threads are messed up on the change clutch shaft could it not being tightened up enough for the splines not to mesh up cause the shaft not to turn. I don’t have a whole nut on the shaft I realized it when watching to see if the shaft was turning. But looks like it would have to be up on the shaft spline to be that far on that the cover went on. Just grasping at straws. I’ll check what you said and see what I can find. Thanks. Might be a while before I can check it out. I’ll get to it as soon as I can.

[Mech]

No even if the nut was quite loose the splines would turn the hub, if the hub was right on.

. It doesn't sound right though about the nut only just being on the threads. It should have threads poking out through the nut to stake it. That might be where the trouble is. Something not sitting right down.

If you look in the slots of the clutch basket you should be able to see wear marks were the clutch plates touch the basket.. Check the plates are lined up with the wear marks.

In the service manual I read that nut was meant to be tightened to eighty, not one-hundred..  As soon as I heard one-hundred I thought it sounded too tight..  That's why I suggested seventy.. Educated guess..  Be gentle on that thread.

[Gwbarm]

I just ran across this video , fairly well made may help a little doesent really go into the clutch much, more into the shifting mechanism. 

 

 

[Ejwill]

I checked the change clutch this morning before I left for the Dr. The plates are all very loose, I can move the all around wit my finger. They are really sloppy. Maybe this will help some, had to leave before really checking it out . I’m sitting in Dr. Exam room now waiting on him.

[Mech]

I didn't watch all of that.. I was about ready to give up at the stage when I saw he didn't rock the bike trying to get the gears to shift, and then he started pounding on the shift lever ! But I carried on, till I saw him not realise that clutch actuator falls out, and he didn't understand how it works.. He thought the balls or plate were meant to react against the aluminum case.

Some of these videos are really quite alarming.

 

[Mech]

Ok.. Well I think there are two likely possibilities, I'm assuming that you are saying they are all very loose while the springs are still in there ? In that case it could  be that the inner plate, the one with the four pillars on it, didn't get lined up and pulled onto the hub's splines. That inner plate could be being held by spring pressure up against the back side of the hub, and so not compressing the plates as it should.

Or, the other thing that comes to mind is that the hub didn't get right through every plate as you were working in in there through the plate's splines, and so it's clamped against the very inner most steel, in which case the inner most steel and friction only will be clamped. You say all the plates are loose though so it seem like the first is the most likely.

I think that if you take the square plate off to release the springs(carefully), then either maneuver the hub through the last steel plate, or maneuver the inner plate with the four pillars forwards till it's located over the hub's splines and starting to compress the plates, then put the springs and square plate back on, it will come right.

Hope the Doc's good to you..  I suppose it's an expensive thing to go see the Doc over there ?

[Ejwill]

I’ll give it a try, Doc. didn’t do much to help pretty much said to keep on with physical therapy and the pain injections. Price is up there without insurance, we have Medicare and a supplemental insurance through wife’s retirement. So meet deductibles and it’s not too bad. Unless it’s something terrible happens. I’m going to check and see if each one is loose or all . I’ll start on it tomorrow my middle grandson has a football game tonight (American football). So have to ride one hour to see that probably in the rain. Hope to figure it out tomorrow. Thanks.

[Mech]

Have a good evening..