2006 trx350te Honda rancher 350 es clutch plates

[Mech]

It occurred to me that that nut being only just on there might be a clue..  Maybe that inner plate, the one with the four pillars, perhaps that's not only not aligned to slip forwards onto the hub's splines, but it could perhaps actually be clamped between the hub and the washer and the baskets center sleeve thing..  not just being held by the springs as I was first surmising. If loosening the square plate and springs doesn't let that inner plate and pillars move, then it's clamped when it shouldn't be.. If it wriggles once the springs are let off then it probably just needs maneuvering around and pulling forward till it slips through a steel. or onto the hubs splines.

[Gwbarm]

I thought about that also , but figured if it wasnt engaging the splines at all you would not have enough threads to even start the nut on the shaft, but what you say makes sense, what else could be stopping it from seating correctly.

[Mech]

Yeah not too sure Gw.. Most of those plates have a splined recess about six mills deep..  It might be enough to prevent the nut going on at all.. or not.

Pretty sure thing though that since all the plates were loose(and I think that was with the springs still on), then the back plate isn't doing it's clamping job.

[Ejwill]

Ok, I checked the plates and all were loose. I decided to loosen all the bolts on the lift plate , taking all the pressure off the springs. I then tightened the bolts back a very little at a time. It took forever it seemed but I got each bolt torqued to correct torque. Now the plates, all of them, are tight and the inner shaft turns with the centrifugal clutch turning. I think that’s what you wanted. The shaft turning when the centrifugal clutch housing turned, the shaft turns now.

[Mech]

Good one..  Check it with a bit of load.. put it in gear and put the back brakes on and see the drive goes through.. tries to turn the wheels.

Or put it in gear and turn the wheels and see it tries to turn the engine turning forwards and doesn't turn the engine with the wheels going backwards.

Then as you put it together, recheck at every stage..  Straight after getting the cover bolts in, adjust the clutch, (which you should confirm how that does go while the cover is off, that it is a standard right hand thread), then check the clutch disengages by lifting the manual shift lever and trying to turn the wheels while it's in gear. While that shift lever is being held up or down it should let the clutch slip. If it doesn't work adjusted like the book says, try it the other way, winding the bolt in till it just touches then out a 1/4 turn. I'm pretty sure that is a translation problem in the manual. It was quite likely corrected in the paper copy with an appendix that didn't get added to the pdf.. 

Then if that's all working carry on with all the other stuff..  And then we will get back to the electric shift !  Did you check it was getting full voltage right at the electric motor, with the motor connected  ?  That's next I think.

And yeah, that inner plate was not slid onto the splines on the hub..  Easy enough to do.. 

Check your work at the end of every little step.. Check, recheck and check again.. 

[Ejwill]

I put it in fifth gear and turned the wheels toward the change clutch rotated clockwise, I also turned the wheels backward and the change clutch turned counterclockwise. So the wheels turn backward also. I’m not sure about the change clutch. It doesn’t plate assembly doesn’t look like it’s all the way back I’ll try a photo and see if you can see what I’m
 

 

[Mech]

That gap at the back is ok. When the clutch release pushes on the square plate at the front it pushes the pillars and the back aluminum plate back to free the plates.

When it was in fifth gear and you turned the wheels forwards it should have turned the engine over.. and so had resistance. And when you turn the wheels backwards the sprag/oneway clutch should slip and so there should be little resistance.. 

As long as the clutch is locking up now it should be right. The shift clutch shouldn't be able to be slipped at all by you.. If you think there is some problem though, like it seems to be slipping,  let us know..

Show us a picture of the nut on the shaft if the square plate is still off.. I'm a bit concerned you said the nut is only just on there.. Do you remember how far on it was to start ?

[Ejwill]

Ok, the reason the nut looks like it’s not far up on the shaft threads is because the original nut was staked into the threads. I had to grind down some of the threads to get to good threads. I got it to the point I could thread it on by hand, then with a ratchet. There are no threads in front of the nut because I had to remove a lot of them to get the nut to thread on at the first of the shaft. So it’s as good as it will get now on that shaft. The tires turned with a lot of resistance forward and turned more easy backward. Should I continue on or is there something else I need to do. Thanks.

[Mech]

No that's all sounding right.. Cover on, adjust the clutch, check the clutch disengages with the manual shifter..

If the clutch disengages the wheels should turn a lot freer than they did a  minute ago in gear and turning the wheels in the forwards direction..

[Ejwill]

I put it in neutral a while ago and the tires spun forward freely, if that’s what you mean. I could shift up to fifth and back to neutral, I still had to roll the tires to get the gears to shift all the way. But it would go all the way up and back down using the manual shifter. 

[Mech]

Yeah that's usual to have to rock the bike or wheels to allow the gears to align and slip together.

And you know about the sprag clutch making it have engine braking when the wheels are turning forwards, but not when they are turning backwards. And that's working.. so all good.

And so now we just need to be sure the shift clutch is locked up is the thing..  And then to check it disengages when the shift lever is held up or down once the cover is on and the clutch adjusted..

If you put it into low gear and try turning the wheels forwards it should be real hard, it should try to turn the engine over.. You shouldn't be able to turn the engine over in first gear..

[Gwbarm]

You guys are doing a great job, still here and keeping up with your progress. Sounds like its coming along good.

[Ejwill]

Well, you know what that means. I did something really stupid, that I was told not to do. But I couldn’t resist, I was so close with-in 1/8 of an inch on the cover and so I tried to pull it up with the bolts. It was so close I thought maybe I’d get by with it but noooo the cover cracked almost in half. I’m sorry for not listening but I got in a hurry and screwed up. It was binding on something and I couldn’t find what it was . No scratches rubs nothing. I went ahead and got another one on the way I couldn’t  go this far and not give it another try. Y’all have been too good to me to just quit. Mech you told me once if it came off ok it should go back ok. The first time I took it off I had to use a block of wood and hit the cover to get it off. I should have mentioned it but didn’t think it was important at the time. I have looked several times and can’t find where it binding.  And by the way do y’all know a trick to keep the ball retainer and spring to stay in place while you are assembling the front cover on the motor. If you bump anything it falls off. I will try not to do anything stupid like that again, but I can’t promise it won’t happen that’s just me. Thanks for everything,  y’all have been great. It’s really good to be able to ask someone about things like this, I don’t have anyone any more since my Dad died in January of 2011. He used to could fix anything, then in his late fifties / early 60s he got dementia and then Alzheimer’s after that he could barely screw in a light bulb. So I appreciate y’all helping me through this. Thanks so much.

[Mech]

Ej !!!

Well..   I'd guess it was that clutch release thingy that caused the problem there. At 1/8 of an inch it would only be either the hollow dowels that locate the cover, or the clutch mechanism.. and if it had been the dowels , given they are right near to the bolts, you'd only have had minor and localised distortion if any..  But that clutch thing being right in the middle.. yup.. that would break it.. 

The real shame here Ej is that it could have been so easily avoided. If you'd asked how to keep the clutch thing in place I could have told you..  You use a blob of vaseline. You put it on a flat place if possible and then push the bit on hard and the grease holds it real good. For that particular part you might need quite a bit, some behind and some between the plates. Simple as that though. 

Anyway..  Lesson learnt I hope.. If in doubt, ask. Both Gw and I are very happy to help where we can and have plenty of experience with these things.

Oh.. and don't use common workshop chassis or wheel-bearing grease, they don't melt easily enough. Vaseline melts at pretty much body temperature and won't cause any harm. It does mean you can't handle the part much or the vaseline will go soft and not hold things so good. But if the vaseline is cold, it will hold quite big parts in place if they fit together flat.

[Gwbarm]

Ej sorry to hear that, bad things happen to good people, no trouble, dont let it get you down, mistakes happen, they happen to all of us, you are a big man to admit yours for everyone to see. it will get right, just about anything that could go wrong has happened to you on your project. You just suck it up and come back for more, you are an inspiration to all of us, very impressive, with all the other things you have going on. Keep it up and good luck! 

[Ejwill]

Thanks Y’all I appreciate it, one question though the bearing that fits in the cover. Does it fit flush with the cover when pressed into the cover or is it pressed deeper into the cover. When I took the cover off for the first time the bearing was stuck on the shaft of the centrifugal clutch and I had to pull it off with a puller. I thought maybe it was the bearing not seating properly that might be keeping the cover from going on as it should. I still didn’t see anywhere the cover was hitting that would have caused it not to have gone on easily. That bearing being stuck on that shaft was why it was so hard to come off the first time. I thought maybe it not being pressed deep enough into the cover might have been the reason the cover was binding.  I don’t have a press so had to put it in by hand. It stopped flush with the cover, didn’t know it it was supposed to go deeper into the recessed area or not. I’ll send a picture of the break and where the bearing is later this morning it’s 0400 right now, so it will be a little later before I get to it .Thanks again so much for the help.

[Ejwill]

Here’s a photo of the cover. It shows the crack and the position of the bearing. You can ignore the damage to the seal on the bearing I did that after the fact, just to see if it would go any deeper into the recessed area. I figured it couldn’t have hurt anything. I had already ordered a new bearing anyway. The way it broke on the centrifugal clutch side made me think it had to be somewhere around the bearing or hitting something else over there.

[Gwbarm]

It should be flush with the case, but looking at the photo it doesnt appear to be enough to have caused the problem.

[Ejwill]

Yeah, after I found the photo of the cover I figured it was right, and wasn’t the problem. Thanks for reply.

[Mech]

As you tap the bearing in only tap it on the outer race, and listen to the noise. It will change when the bearing isn't going in any more. And if you warm the case slightly, even just sitting in the sun if it's hot, will make a difference to how the bearing goes in..  A bit of oil and light taps around the outside race being very careful not to let it get cocked over and it should be fine.

And, yeah that tiny bit above the case shouldn't be a problem.

[Ejwill]

I’m hoping the parts get here soon, ready to give it another try. Hopefully without screwing it up this time. If I get everything lined up like you said with the Vaseline I hope it will go on right. Thanks.

[Mech]

If it takes more than a thump with your hand to close up the gap then there's something wrong.

And the bearings should all be in the case, and the shafts should pull out and go into them nicely. If that centrifugal/crank shaft seems like a tight fit in the bearing you should use a small oilstone on the very end of the shaft.. It might have a tiny burr and if you use the stone flat across the end of the bearing seat, at right angles to the shaft, it should show up and be easy to remove.

[Gwbarm]

When replacing mine after i was sure everything was lined up i had to wiggle it a little side to side to get everything to slip in place, but i was also fighting the rotor magnets.

[Ejwill]

If I take the ball adapter off the cover will go right on flush but with it on I can’t get it to line up so that it goes on flush. Is there something I could be doing wrong with the ball adapter. I can leave everything on except it and it goes right on like it’s supposed to. About to get fed up with it. I don’t know if I’m putting it on wrong the spring goes toward the inside or out toward the clutch adjustment. The manual I have doesn’t show or tell anything about it. Thanks for any help.

[Mech]

Have you checked the adjuster is right back ?

 

[Mech]

You had it all fitted before, and it was all going except for the clutch plate not being aligned and fitted onto the clutch hubs splines, causing clutch slip.

You haven't had the nut off, so the hub can't have moved, only the inner plate with the pillars has moved forwards. The adjuster should be able to accommodate that travel.

If the adjuster isn't accomodating that travel, then the whole hub must be too far forwards..  i think.

Can you post some pictures ? One at an angle at the front of the nut, and one straight side on showing how the basket teeth align with the centrifugal clutches teeth.

[Ejwill]

I got the cover to finally go flush . I torqued the bolts and was still getting 5 gears up and back to neutral I put it on the ground and cranked it up and put it into first gear. I was able to ride it around the yard but couldn’t get it into but first gear. I thought I should try adjusting the clutch, but the adjustment shaft was hard to turn after loosening the lock nut. I don’t know if something moved on the shift shaft like that ball adapter or not. I didn’t think it should be that hard to turn . I rode it a few minutes and stopped it completely and then tried to shift to second with the manual shifter. But all I could get was first gear, I was rocking it but it just would not shift. So I don’t know, it was shifting while jacked up and moving the tires. But on the ground and rocking it would not shift past first. It will shift from neutral to first with the electric shifter but only to first and back to neutral. Thought we had it there for a while.

[Mech]

Well if it shifted through all the gears when there was no load on things, a torque load from the engine that is, then it should shift when riding as long as there is no torque load on the gears.

To test that you should put it into gear and drive it till it's revving fairly high and then let the throttle off abruptly as you change gears. As the engine changes from driving the bike forwards to giving engine braking there will be a moment where there is no torque load on the gears and they should change nicely. Timing between the throttling off and the shift is critical though so try it a few times at different revs and timings. Try it with the manual shift and the electric. We might still have to do something with the electric shift.

Then, if that works try to get the clutch to adjust as per the book, then if that doesn't work, try adjusting it as I've suggested earlier, winding it in till it contacts and then out the 1/8 of a turn. I'd imagine the adjuster bolt feels tight now because it's already pressing the release bearing, which means it probably needs backing off.. which ever way that is.

You can check the shift clutch is working, both releasing and driving, by lifting the lever into first, then keep holding it up while you rev the engine. If the clutch adjustment is right, holding the shift lever up operates the shift clutch just like a manual clutch with a lever on the bars, and it won't drive forwards when the centrifugal clutch starts to try and drive it, then, if you keep the revs up to where you know the centrifugal would have locked up and been driving, and lower the shift lever, the bike should lurch forwards. Be careful. If holding the shift lever up doesn't prevent it moving forwards once the centrifugal clutch starts to operate then the shift clutch isn't working. Try adjusting it again differently.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Mech

[Ejwill]

Ok, thanks I’ll give it a try in the morning, it felt good just to get it to move maybe It’ll get better. Thanks a lot for all the help.

[Mech]

I bet.

Have you driven two wheel bikes before much ? Do you know how to change gears without using a clutch on a two wheeler ? It's much the same, and the same a s what I was describing in that second paragraph, but a bit harder on a quad.

If it changed gears jacked up, then it will change riding it if you can take the load off the gears as you try shifting.