Suzuki Eiger 400 2004 Rear Wheels Locked (Next Restoration Project)

[Gwbarm]

Im finishing up on the Big Bear, just tying up some loose ends and its done.

My next project I actually bought first, but the Big Bear seemed like it was more challenging so tackled it first. Now looking the Eiger over im not so Sure.

I bought this Suzuki Eiger, almost a year ago, rear wheels locked up, but it ran fairly well. It was so bad that it took 3 Big Guys to get it on my trailer. All the parts were there it ran. He wanted 600.00 and I offered him 400.00. a plus it had the original Kei Hin carb on it.

 

 

 

You might ask, why would you want something so ugly, it is often referred to as the ugly sister to the King Quad. I actually like the Eiger I have this one and also a 2007. I have riden them before, they are strong a true beast, I am a fairly Big Guy 6' 3" 195 pds, and it fits me good, but what I really like is the wide foot print and low center of gravity , not so easy to turn over.

So I get it home and I don't have 3 big guys to help me get it off my trailer, but I do have a John Deere, hooked it up and drug it off the trailer,an afterthought I should have used a couple of furniture moving dolly's under the rear wheels, oh well. Maybe I didn't ruin the already stuck rear end or transmission I was sure which, I was fairly sure it wasn't locked brake drums, after all that they should have popped free.

 This is what I have done so far. It's off the trailer I took the drive shaft bolts loose, they were tight, had to get a 3 foot cheater, I thought they were going to break. Got them out and now I can roll it around. I checked the shifter, this is a manual shift Eiger LTF400F. Foot shifter moved didn't seem to be going to any gear, but it was hard to tell, the shifter on the tank which has Low, High, and Reverse did not move. I took it apart and oiled it up good still wouldn't move. Thought the cable was stuck so I unhooked it from the linkage and cable moved freely. Looked at the linkage closely and it was stuck. I tapped it lightly, very lightly , with small hammer and it freed up kind of, but still stiff. I could tell this side cover had been off before and put back very sloppily. This is kind of where i left off except the plastics are all off, you might have seen me working on them in another post. Nothing I have done so far has helped, my next step was to take the side cover off the engine to see what's going on in there, but installing my Granite counter top, numerous honeydews, and the big bear kind of slowed down my progress. I did determine that it wasn't the rear end, that's actually what I thought it was going to be. If anyone has any ideas, they would be appreciated.  

 

[Mech]

Nope..  sounds like you're on to it.

Check the oil for metal perhaps ?  Gearbox metal.

 

[Gwbarm]

Forgot to mention that, one of the first things I did was run a magnetic pickup tool down the oil hole and got nothing did it several times, at different angles, nothing. So I determined maybe that was a good sign. I haven't changed the oil yet figured that could wait until I pulled the side cover, figured it might be a while before I got to it.

[Mech]

Yeah that's a good sign.. It must be stuck in two gears, and as long as it hasn't damaged the gears it should be reasonably easy.. we hope.

I haven't seen one of those. In the KQs there is the regular five speed box, and then that drives the reduction gears. The reduction gears are great big chunky things. If the five speed box had stuck in two gears, which is virtually impossible anyway, then you'd be able to slip the bigger reduction gears in and out still I think. So.. if it is the same layout(parts picture), it will be the reguction gears, or reverse that's somehow managed to engage two gears at once, which will be in the shift mechanism and interlock if it's reverse. Those parts, the shift mechanism etc, should be in the side case.

I'll go have a look in a parts diagram..

[Mech]

Ok.. so, if the drive shaft has a little movement at the engine then the bevel gears are probably ok, but if there is absolutely no movement then it's possible the bevel gear is broken. If there is a bit of backlash play between the bevel gears but then solid I'd guess it's the final drive..

[Gwbarm]

I haven't messed with it lately, but I think I remember that I was getting no movement whatsoever at the engine, I jacked the rear end up and I was getting a little back and forth movement, but I just think it was from the final drive, once I unhooked the drive shaft from the engine I could roll it around, so I assumed the final drive was OK. I am going to get out tomorrow and do some more evaluating and testing and see what I come up with. I was going to get a big wrench and see if I could gently move the drive shaft at the engine, at that time I was thinking it could be a seized bearing. I decided not to do that until I took the cover off and take a look at the gears, whatever is going on has not locked up the engine because it runs, but I didn't run it very long. Then shortly after that the Big Bear followed me home and you know the rest.

[Mech]

Have you looked at the parts drawings ? That bevel gear on the outside is on a shaft that only has one big gear on it. I'd imagine there is meant to be a tiny amount of play between the two bevel gears that turn the output from chain drive to shaft drive, and then there will be noticable play between the big gear and the other big gear it engages with. I'd check for that play first. If there is no play at all then it's something with the two bevel gears(or bearings), or that first shaft with a gear on.

[Gwbarm]

I did look and I came to the same conclusion there should be a little play there. Thats why I was thinking it may be a seized bearing, I even thought even if the gear had broken off and jammed I should get a little movement one way or another.

[Gwbarm]

I did jack up the rear end today drive shaft unhooked I can turn the wheels by hand and drive shaft moves with no noise a little wear there because I can move the wheels a bit before the driveshaft moves, but that is not my problem. I tried turning the shaft coming out of the engine there and no movemeant what soever, but do get movement from the shaft coming out of the front of the engine going to the front wheels. I tried shifting with the foot shifter and it does shift and feels like it's going into gear. So something has the backshaft frozen solid.

 

 

 

[Mech]

Sounds right. It occurred to me that you could test the five speed with the engine running. You should be able to test the hi/lo as well I think. It might be a bit tight to shift if the gears are wound up against the seized shaft, but they should slide free. If you can move the hi/lo then it really points to the last short output shaft, which would presumably have to be a seized bearing.

If the hi/lo doesn't shift them it could still be jammed in two gears there...  though I don't see how that could be given one sliding dog engages either but not both at the same time. One of those two gears though does work in reverse, and if the shift lug had broken off the shift fork it could leave it in reverse.. 

See shift fork 4 has an extra lug..  I think that's a part of the interlock/shift for reverse..

 

[Gwbarm]

I am trying to figure out the best way to proceed. Hook the driveshaft back up with the rear wheels off the ground, crank the engine and try to shift the 5 speed, and  the high, low and reverse shifters you suggested, and see what happens. Or take the stator side cover off first, and see if everything is in place , and inspect to see if anything  is going on in there. I can tell that the side cover has been off before, not even sure if all the gears are there.

[Mech]

I'd try it running, check all the gears can change.. without the drive shaft on....  Since the drive shaft flange is locked up solid, the drive shaft isn't going to do anything anyway.. 

If you can find a false neutral in the hi/lo you could run the five speeds and have a good listen..

I'd take the side cover off eventually just to check what the novices had been doing in there, but I'd do as much diagnosis and checking of things conditions before then as much as possible....

[Gwbarm]

I have worked with it a little bit, sprayed it down several times with PB Blaster, it is not frozen up so solid anymore, I can get a little movement and it now feels like it's stuck in gear. If you listen closely you can hear the click click as I turn it back and forth with my hand. I haven't started it yet I may have to clean the carb to get it to start its been sitting about 8 months. Thats next on my agenda.

 

 

 

[Mech]

Hmmm. That little play makes me think it must be that first shaft. That little play would be between the bevel gears..  I'd guess.. If the bevel gears or bearings were seized then there would be no play, if it was the second shaft in seized then the big cross cut gears would have more play than that I think. And if it was the third shaft in seized, then there would be two lots of cross cut gears play, plus the bevel gear play and there would be lots of play..  and a bigger clunk.

All guesses of course.. and your guess are as good as mine Gw..  haha.  I'll look on interestedly.

[Gwbarm]

Just an observation, i was just checking out the trans, with it in high or low, I can shift through all the gears , as  I go up in gear the play gets a little less prominent,but never goes away, like you said if it was seized bearing no play at all,  trans seems to be working fine, when I move hand lever shifter to reverse, no shifting at foot shift. 

[Mech]

But still the shaft won't turn..  Not even in the 5 speed's neutral..  Try to find a false neutral in the hi/lo, there will be one, all gears have a neutral between them. It should be easy to find with the non-ratcheting hand shift..  See if it will turn then..

 

[Gwbarm]

Thanks! I will try that.

[Mech]

"as  I go up in gear the play gets a little less prominent,but never goes away"..  That's a weird thing..  My first thoughts there are that it's something way back before the five speeds, like the centrifugal clutch is locked up..  But then it would come free in neutral.. 

If it was that shaft the bevel gear is on that was seized, then I don't see why changing the five speeds would make a difference.. 

If you can find a neutral in hi/lo and the bevel gear shaft still won't turn then it has to be the shaft's bearings, or that retainer screw I see in the picture..  Looks like it holds the bearing in.

 

[Gwbarm]

Tried the L,H,R shifter in all different places still nothing moving, tried the foot shifter again still not moving, I think this one is going to be fun.  

[Gwbarm]

I was working the foot shift and hand shift , put it in L and shifted the foot shifter , put it in high and shifted the foot shifter, I can definitely feel it shifting 3 times didn't really go all the way to 5, tried to find the false neutral you were talking about by putting in different places along the length of the hand shift  still no movement at drive shaft. Went back to where neutral should be with foot shifter and tried pulling up a little bit, sometimes neutral is hard to find between low and first, still nothing. If you look closely all of the linkages look like they have been changed out, they look newer than the rest of the bike.

 

This shafts and linkages look like they has been changed also with new oil seal, so previous owner threw some money at this and I guess gave up.

Probably sold it just to get his money back

 

[Mech]

Well you know how gear changes are when the engine's not running and we can't rock the bike.. That's all just normal really.

Since you couldn't get the drive shaft to turn, even as the hi/lo must have passed through it's neutral point, then the seizure must be either the drive shaft or the short shaft with a bevel gear on it, that's seized, and, by the look of that little bit of movement you can get out of the driveshaft, and the click/clunk, which makes it seem like the drive shaft is moving freely, it looks like it must be the short shaft.

I'd take the side case off and check things as I went but it looks like you'll be working towards a total strip down..

[Gwbarm]

Nooooo not the strip down I was sure you would have a secret formula hit the clutch side 4 times with hammer and stator 2times and it would come loose. 
 

Just kidding I think I have known for a while it needed to come out, just not sure if I have enough a$$ left to lift that engine by myself.

[Mech]

Sorry about that. I was hopeing too.

The only other thing is.. one of those hi/lo gears is also used in combination with a gear in the five speed to reverse the direction of the final drive when it wants reverse. It would be nice to check reverse works, or tries to work.. That's a bit hard though without the side case off so you can turn the plate clutch.. So.. It's a bit of a toss up which side case you take off first..  I think I'd take the left side off and check the hi/lo and reverse, and check that short shaft with the bevel gear on it from there. If you took the hi/lo gears off from in there, then you could turn the rest of the five speed by hand using the ends of the gearbox shafts, and try turning that short bevel gear shaft..

And if it has to come out.. I'd slide a piece of ply or wood under the engine and slide it out... I'm old too.

[Gwbarm]

The picture of the shaft and seal I sent yesterday, it looks like it was put in yesterday I get more oil than that on a seal just installing it. I don’t think it has been run since this work was done, if so very slightly, maybe they didn’t get everything back together right and it locked up, I know wishful thinking. My plan as well was to get this side cover off, just planning how to do it without everything falling out in my lap, I think I will jack that side up and put it on jack stands

[Mech]

Good plan..  That keeps the oil in too.

[Gwbarm]

Just about got it read to pull the side cover off,and as I was undoing the last bolt I heard something inside the cover it actually sounded like metal reconforming after you take stress off it, and as I started looking closer it looked like the cover had been hammered on and not with a rubber mallet

 

.

It actually looked like it had been hammered on with a claw hammer, it will be interesting to see what I find in there, I was beginning to loose light and really need to see this in the daytime.

 

[Gwbarm]

Worked all morning trying to get the case off, went through the manual to see if there is any bolts I forgot, and there wasn't, while looking for forgotten bolts I found a more prominent crack. Still not sure whats holding the case on, I have gotten rough with it and still not coming off, got the top separated  about half inch but bottom is not budging. Just for the record, im not having fun, heat index here yesterday was 108F. 

 

[Mech]

The seized up bearing is welded to a shaft..  ?

 

[Gwbarm]

Finally got it off it was just stuck probably to the bearing like you said, I ended up getting 2 pry bars on each side of the case and pulling alternately and then at the same time and it finally popped. I don't like being that rough with the gasket surface, no choice here, I even tried a slide hammer with bolt screwed into the pull rope mounting holes and was afraid I was going to strip it out, I was pulling hard. This is exactly how it came out, im surprised it ran at all, magnets everywhere. Another green gasket tell tale sign somebody's been messing around.

 

One of the cleanest engines I have taken apart in a while. Notice there are only 2 magnets left on the flywheel and they are loose. Everything else looks good, still messing with it , I just came in to cool for a few minutes, heat index here is 105 today a little better than the 108 yesterday. Further update later.

 

 

 

[Mech]

Yeah nice and clean. See the smaller bearing has pulled out of the case a bit.

That outer gear is on backwards though ! That would be why the case didn't go back on right ?

And the magnets can't have been locking up the engine, or if they did lock up the crank, the centrifugal clutch should have let the gearbox turn in one direction at least..

If you pull the selector fork and those gears off there now, the bottom shaft should be able to turn with the drive shaft.