Suzuki Eiger 400 2004 Rear Wheels Locked (Next Restoration Project)

[Mech]

Ah no..  I see now. That outer gear that was backwards was jammed up against the cover, and couldn't turn, and so nor could the gear below it.. 

So now you need to figure out why they took it apart to start with..  I bet it wasn't because of a seized driveshaft.. that's the result of their looking for some other problem.

[Gwbarm]

I can get the driveshaft to turn now both front and rear.

 

 

 

I did notice the gear on backwards, jacking it up helped because I didn't have one gear fall out of place, but I did have to drain the oil, guess I didn't jack it high enough, did not notice the bearing, thanks for spotting that, although I am going to try to locate another cover for it this one is bady cracked, I know I can fix it with JB weld but while in in here im just going to replace it, .Get a new rotor turn the gear around and try to figure out what happened to cause him to open the case, also check the neutral switch, it wasn't working, and its inside there too.

 

It doesnt look damaged.

 

 

[Gwbarm]

Shoulnt that backwards gear just slide off the shaft. It seems to be stuck on there. Im trying to put it all back together right to try and figure out what was initially wrong when they took it apart.

[Mech]

Yeah that gear just free-wheels around till it's engaged by that sliding dog next to it. It should slide off.. Perhaps see if it turns on the shaft first. That double gear on a hub next to it should pull off too as far as I can tell looking at the book.

The shafts they're on(both shafts and both gears sets) are gearbox shafts and turns. The shaft turning while the gear is jammed up against the case like that might have damaged it in where we can't see yet. It wasn't designed to have thrust loads. It has a couple of end float washers, one on each side of that gear supposedly. Try to turn it and work it off.. probably a burr on the inner side of the gear I would guess.

[Gwbarm]

Thanks for the reply Mech, im feeling kind of stupid right now trying to get this thing off, but I don't know how he put it on, I got an inspection mirror to look behind the gear and there is something there it doesnt look like a snap ring  like the other gear has, looks more like a washer solid all the way around. I was just about to get a puller and pull it off the shaft and thought I better double check, don't want to break  anything. 

 

So I looked up the diagram to see how it s supposed to be together gear number 4 is the backward gear it does not have a lock ring like the gear in front of it and that snap ring is in place, diagram does show a washer between #4 and #5 which is what I must be seeing behind the gear, so I see nothing that is locking it on. It will not budge or hasn't budged yet, I should say. Just wanted a second opinion here, you think I should go ahead and pull it off with a puller. Not sure why but all the videos I have looked at showing this gear it just slides right off, I thought maybe there was a little different taper in the gear itself from front to back, and putting it on backwards may have caused it to stick.

 

 

 

 

[Gwbarm]

Forgot to answer your question yes they both free wheel until engaged with the dogs

[Mech]

Yeah that's the same picture I'm looking at.. The gear should just slide off with your fingers.

I'm guessing, since you say it (gear 4), turns on it's shaft, that it must be damaged in behind there, perhaps the shaft is made with a tiny groove where the smooth shaft meets the splines, and perhaps the end thrust and rotation, has turned the edge of the gear very slightly so they catch in that groove. If that's the case, and you have the other gear out of the way so you can turn that 4 gear, I'd expect that if you rotate it it will feel free, till you start pulling and turning, at which point you will feel the burr start to grab or drag and things will get tight.. 

This is all assuming they did run the engine with that case on there..  Or perhaps just their pounding it with a hammer has turned a burr in there..  The case was probably going on crookedly, as it came off, causing things to jamb up.. They must have been tightening the screws and hammering mighty hard to pull the cover over the dogs on that gear,, they will be close to eight mills(3/8) high won't they ?

[Mech]

Looking at your photos it looks like gear 4 has a bush in it.. The shaft and damage shouldn't be too bad.

If it won't wind off by hand I'd use a small puller.

[Gwbarm]

Better Photo of the shaft from the service manual, gear just must be jammed on there. Just saw your most recent post, I thought the two gears went on to the cogged area and the smooth surface went into the bearing, and the change fork went on the bushing with the oil hole, but the gear does appear to have a bushing in it.

 

 

[Mech]

The gear 4 runs right on the end of the shaft almost, and in the drawing it shows an oil hole to it. Then there's a shim and a bearing.

That bush that's splined to the same shaft, part 8 in that manual photo, that has the other gear running on it. Both those two gears are free wheeling unless the sliding, and splined to the shaft dog, is slid along into mesh with one or the other of them.

Oh and look..  in that manual photo.. the shaft does have a groove between the machined round and the splines..  Bingo.. That's where the bush is caught Gw.. 

[Gwbarm]

I did see that grove, at first I thought it was for a keeper, but the exploded diagram didn't show one. I guess we will find out when I get it pulled off. Thanks you for all your help.

[Mech]

It will just be the soft bush damaged.. wind and pull it.. it'll come. Then use a scraper to touch it up.

They likely started out trying to get the switch fixed..  I doubt the magnets were the problem, they got knocked off by them hammering, and perhaps really fell out when you dragged it off.

[Gwbarm]

Magnets are a problem everyone has with this machine the replacement flywheel has internal magnets, I don’t think as you said that was the initial problem, it possible they went into replace the neutral switch gears fell off everywhere and didn’t get it back together right. When I get it all back together I will check the shifting before I put the cover back on to make sure everything is moving and shifting right. So far I don’t see any major problems, haven’t got to it today very hot heat index is supposed to be 110 today

[Gwbarm]

Well finally got enough nerve to get out in the the heat and get it off, heat index got up to 114, but I had to know.

Gear pulled of fairly easily but left the bushing behind

 

Bushing came off but it wasn't really happy about it, it had a crack in it also I didn't do that it was already there. Washer had wedged itself down in the grove, but it came out, more difficult than the bushing.

 

Shaft has some damage not sure howits going to affect anything, may have to replace it.

 

Gear and shaft both got extremely hot not sure if that's from actually using it, or just running the engine, it did run when I got it but I didn't run it very long, previous owner may have. This can get into a fairly expensive fix, flywheel, stator is ok, sometimes that gets toasted as well, shaft, gear and case. Everything else seems OK. It could have been worse.

[Mech]

Ouch ! 

Well.. If that was my bike, or, under the circumstances, even a customer's with their agreement, which they'd all give knowing I'm a responsible(and competent) guy, I'd clean all that up and put it together with new washers and possibly a bush..  possibly. That bush was probably made with the split. If it's worn get a new bush from the engineering supply shop. Then I'd try the bike out for a bit before ripping it apart again and checking how things were looking and what I'd decided the bike needed in the way of other work.

It's a small investment in gasket and shim etc and only a bit of time.. 

[Mech]

That heat was caused by the end thrust, and should not in theory have worn the shaft's bearing surface. The heat on the gear shouldn't be any problem as long as the new bush fits nice. The heat on the shaft..  Hard to say. You could try scratching the shaft a little with a file on a place where it hasn't got hot. That will show whether it was a heat treated(hardened) surface. If it's fairly markable on an unheated part then it was soft to start. If the test suggests it was case hardened, then you need to decide how soft it is now.. 

[Gwbarm]

Thanks Mech, those are my thoughts also, clean it up, I was surprised to see the ridge on the end of the corrugated area caused by the washer, I would have thought the shaft metal would have been harder and obliterated the washer. I am thinking of filing that down even with the rest of the shaft, republish the smooth surface that the bushing rides on and trying with the gear on the right way and see how it works. Im going to see if I can find a bushing to fit tomorrow, if not I have found another gear on eBay reasonable with bushing in tact that should work. I think I will even try the original case for now and see if everything works. Im wondering if the bearing that was raised up in the case may have happened when I was trying to get the case off, I did have to get rough with it to get it off. 

[Mech]

Yeah that bearing would have got pulled up out of the side case by the shafts being cocked over in the bearings..  and the tapping and wriggling.

And yeah..  I was wondering if perhaps that shaft isn't slightly soft at the end there where the bush runs..  On purpose. Check it with a file out on the end where the bearing sits.

Yeah I'd file or oilstone all the burrs off, get new washers and check/calculate the end clearances using a straight edge and vernier calipers.

The bush, engineering supply shops have stock bushes, in various materials. You will probably need a brass bush, unless they have some fancy new suggestion, like teflon(not teflon.. it's too soft), but try not to get sold sintered bronze, which is porous and soft and isn't really suitable. Sintered bronze is what lots of old starter and generators used to use, the bushes are obviously porous.. Brass is shiny and not porous. Sintered bronze would do at a pinch, but I'd want to take it out when I had a recheck in there after a few miles. Anyway.. They come in standard metric and imperial internal and outer diameters, and various lengths. If you are lucky you will find one that has both the inside and outer diameters right and only have to cut it shorter perhaps. If not, choose one with the right outer diameter and cut it to length, press it in and then ream, machine or hone it to a nice fine clearance on the shaft.

[Gwbarm]

Thanks I went several places today , no luck, all of the bushings are thicker and not the right diameter, and brass, suzuki doesnt even list it as a replacement part. I will look im sure there are some industrial supplies that may have one. It would be less trouble to just order the used gear on eBay for 12.00.

[Mech]

Ha.. ok.. for $12 yeah.. Hopefully everything else you need will be availiable at a ok price.  You were lucky about the stator !!

[Gwbarm]

Descent price and free shipping, I went ahead and ordered it, taking a closer look at the bushing it is pretty specific, it has little diamond shapes cut on the inside surface, for oil to pool and oil the shaft.

[Mech]

I think it will have been a steel backed white metal bush.. Thin layer of white metal so it doesn't squeeze out under pressure. And yeah, the pattern would have held oil. Although it is fed oil under low pressure, it wasn't designed to float on a layer of high pressure oil like a main or big end is in a car. 

Every part in there is the result of more than a century of accumulated knowledge and refinement..  And the Japs are really good at that !

 

[Gwbarm]

Not having much luck yet at smoothing the end of the shaft back down, a file wasn't doing much, so I got a dremmell with a flat metal cutting disc, that was working fairly well but you end up hitting places with it you don't want to hit, I may end up getting a diamond bur, flat, and working it back down with that. The sliding piece that engages the dogs does hit the lip, but it's so close to the end of its run can't really tell if it will cause a problem.

[Mech]

So it is hard then..  I'd probably use an oilstone..  but I'm a bit strange..  haha.

I doubt the sliding dog gets right to the end of the shaft. As long as you can get that dog on and off the splines it's probably good enough. It's not going to stick or fail to engage or anything.

I'd want the running surface for the bush to be nice though..

[Gwbarm]

Oh !  A Knife sharpening stone, I didn't think that would be aggressive enough, very rarely use them.  I will give it a try

[Mech]

And in that regard..  trust your fingers. Fingers can detect distortion and bumps in the range of fractions of a thou..  Your eye can't see a bump or distortion of five thou generally/often..

I've trained apprentices and the best lesson you can give them is to use all their senses. It helps hugely in their manual  work, and in diagnosing..

I have heaps of small stones..  I make swords..  haha..

They are slow, but they will do things that neither files nor grinding tools will/can do. A little kerosene and press hard and move slowly to grind, when you want to polish the surface, then light and faster.

[Gwbarm]

Been working on it all morning tried the oil stone first it really polishes and makes the metal look nice, I had about a 3mm raise on the shaft end and realized I didn't want to do this until 2093, so I had some polishing stones for my dremmel tool, worked good getting the lip off not as polished looking as the oil stone, but still won't come off the shaft, got to work on it a little more. I think there is still a raised area in the valley when I finish and can get it off the shaft smooth it out with the oil stone.

[Mech]

Yeah a stone being flat will work like a plane and show up and grind the high spots.. while the dremel will go over/follow small discrepancies in a flat plane and eventually magnify them.

That cutoff saw you have will probably take a thin slice off your kitchen stone...  That's what I do. I've always had a small pocket knife stone, and a bigger block stone in my tool box and workshop. I run them over burrs, heads, anything damaged or that has to be flat.. 

[Gwbarm]

Still working it, I got the bulk of the stressed metal off with a diamond bur and finishing up with the oil stone, looking a lot better but still can't get the shift dogs off the shaft. There are raised areas at the outer edge of the trough which I think are stopping it from coming off. I found a stone that would just fit in the trough, just slow going, just going a little at a time, I will eventually get it. It will now go all the way to the end of the grooved area and im sure will work fine, but I want to keep at it until I can get the dogs off the shaft. waiting on parts anyway, I am getting some new OEM thrush washers and outer gear, so I will be positive they will be the right fit. If you noticed in the last phot, bottom right is the stone im using, it is actually a dental instrument sharpening stone small and good to get in the tight areas.

 

 

[Mech]

If the kitchen stone is courser I'd use that cut off saw, which I presume has a diamond blade, to take a four mill slice off the end. Then you can press down real hard on the four mill edge. If you want to move a lot off metal with a stone you need to press hard, and move slowly..  It's a bit like getting a file to start biting in on cold or rusty steel..  Once you get it to start biting in, then it does it really well.. other wise they slide over the surface taking off not much..