1999 suzuki king quad fuel pump/petcock/carb advice

[Dra O]

posted a while back - it was running at one point - I have all the plastic shroud off - it's down to frame and engine now
-fuel pump: when line from petcock is attached, no fuel comes out other side to carb; the line to the carb is open (can blow through it); I thought when I cranked engine that the pump would spit out fuel on other side but it does not; I removed fuel pump and opened it up - diaphragm looks good - but internal areas had lotsa calcification build up - I cleaned this out and dried it good - the clear plastic pieces (?diaphragms) aren't broken - the spring w/ steel ball on end moves freely; am putting it back on tomorrow; but can anyone answer about the pump? isn't it supposed to pump fuel through it... to other side... to carb? puzzling
-along with fuel pump: I replaced petcock 3 weeks ago (gas tank had rusty fuel in bottom - cleaned it out prior to new petcock); when I turn petcock arrow NOT to on or reserve, fuel comes out of line; when I turn it to on or reserve, fuel doesn't come out; puzzling
-I don't know what's on back of fuel pump - it's a valve that has a hose coming out of it - looks like it goes to engine/carb - I haven't traced this out yet - what is it?
-can squirt gas on air filter and engine will run for 2-3 seconds then stop - fuel in top of carb (under diaphragm) does same
-it likely needs carb rebuild - will get to this - but something isn't allowing fuel to get from fuel pump to carb

-I THINK it has a mikuni model x carb - diaphragm is ID 26mm  OD 68mm - hard to find inexpensive diaphragm, I guess because it's a model x

-last thing - I replaced solenoid due to old one clicking; I HAVE to be charging the battery or it won't start/turn over - battery just goes dead; but if charging, it'll turn over nicely; i'm guessing it's a bad battery
-any help appreciated - I've never owned an ATV before - inherited this beast from grandparent in-law

[Frank Angerano]

The three ports on the carb are as follows: one port on the side  should be marked IN that should clearly be marked.  The other one on the opposite side will not be marked. That’s the one that goes to the carburetor fuel inlet.   The third one on the back of the pump is the vacuum line that activates the pump. That line also goes to the carburetor. It’s on the opposite side of the fuel connection on the carburetor.  What happens is when you crank the engine the vacuum created in the carburetor moves the diaphragm in the pump.  The vacuum that’s created is a pulsing vacuum it sucks in and the internal spring pushed it back out when there’s a break in the vacuum pulse.  If that vacuum line going to the carburetor is cracked or has a leak it’s not going to pump. If the carburetor is dirty and that internal port for the vacuum line  is blocked it’s not going to work.   So if you have any doubts about the carburetor being cleaned then get after it  and take it apart.  I posted a topic on carburetor cleaning, take a peek at it I’m sure  it will help you along if you can’t find the post let me know. 

Make sure your pump is not installed upside down and the lines are reversed.  

Lastly is sometimes the pump has to be primed. Connect up the fuel pump to the petcock but not to the carburetor.  Put a clean long hose on the pump and lightly suck in on that hose a few times and see if you get fuel out of the outlet hose that goes to the carburetor. 

As far as the petcock goes there is a plate on the inside that directs the fuel so make sure that’s installed correctly if you took it apart  or just put a new one in right out of the box.   

battery could have a dead dead cell and won’t hold a charge. Replace it especially if you get this fuel line thing corrected you don't want  to go into the winter with a bad battery. 

Hope this helps. Good luck. 

[Ajmboy]

@Dra O maybe a silly question and I really don't know the answer but when looking at the parts diagram, I noticed two version of the fuel petcock for your YMM atv. Did you buy the correct one?

[Dra O]

I thought a petcock was a petcock (for a king quad 300).  I got it on ebay for about 10 clams.  it is different from original - the anchor holes line up on the tank perfectly but the diaphragm on the new on is slightly smaller than the original - and the rubber gasket on new petcock is just a hair too large for the original petcock, so much so that i'd have to splice it, defeating the purpose of the gasket and risking a leak.

I put original petcock back on today and it was leaking at the switch side (the on, prime, reserve side) - it seats well at against gas tank but the diaphragm, being 20 years old, is flat. i didn't want to spend 100 clams on new, crazy-expensive petcock to fit my specific machine but I may have to (120 on amazon and ebay - can't return it if used - lovely).

I watched a youtube video of a guy "fixing" a petcock on his Harley (similar carbs, apparently) - he elongated internal spring AND warped the inner metal piece even more (to increase tension/pressure behind the switch side) but this didn't work to remedy the issue.

this is getting frustrating, especially having a funky model x mukini and not the y version - there are plenty of parts for the y version.

might oughta consider selling the beast as is - it didn't cost me anything.  or take it to a shop and spend a few hundred clams - I don't know if it's even worth that much.

[Dra O]

Frank, thanks for the info - I will try to prime the new petcock this weekend with a hose - that sounds like a good idea - will use the existing hose that goes to carb. 

*** but shouldn't the fuel pump be spitting out gas to the other side when I crank the engine?  it isn't doing this....

[Frank Angerano]

It would pump if it has vacuum from the carb. So take the line going to the carburetor and pull it off and crank the engine. See if it pumps.  You can also blow into the hose on the top of the gas cap while your cranking the engine to help it along. But if the carburetor is clogged and vacuum is not being produced then it’s not going to work.  

[XWrench3]

i think i bought the same petcock from ebay. i took it apart because i figured someone put it together improperly. the one i bought was made improperly. the reserve position CANNOT function because it is not made right. prime and on work fine. but when you are out of gas, your walking. i rebuilt the original. more expensive, but i will not have to walk.

[Dra O]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:13 AM, Frank Angerano said:

It would pump if it has vacuum from the carb. So take the line going to the carburetor and pull it off and crank the engine. See if it pumps.  You can also blow into the hose on the top of the gas cap while your cranking the engine to help it along. But if the carburetor is clogged and vacuum is not being produced then it’s not going to work.  

got it running today, frank.  FINALLY.... 😀  the pump wouldn't prime until I filled up the tank to almost full (over the level of the fuel pump) - oh, and it helps to turn petcock to the, um, "prime" position (I am an idiot).  but once I did this the gas spit out the other side of the pump.  the engine idled and everything.  pretty pumped about this (no pun intended).  as luck would have it, however, once I turned the engine off I noticed the carb dripping gas everywhere, especially from the bottom hole - looks like a carb rebuild is next on the list.  from what you tube videos I've watched it looks like the floats may be affected.

alright, so I changed the oil last weekend - new ring, filter - everything.  the oil looked really good in the window after filling.  when I started the machine today, the oil in the glass turned light brown, like it had dirt in it.  the old oil looked fine, just really dark.  when I changed the oil I didn't tilt the machine upward to get ALL of the oil out of the oil cooling lines - could this be it?  but the old oil was black....   or could it be simply, I don't know, bubbles in the oil that makes it look light brown while the engine is running?  it's been 6 hours since I started it and I just checked the oil window and it's back to brown / normal again.  probably worrying too much.

I lined the underside of the innermost rubber petcock gasket, the o-ring and outer "bent" ring with a thin film of permatex and it hasn't leaked yet.

thank you for helping, man - I may have screamed like a little girl once it idled, but there's ultimately no need to pass this along to anyone, m'kay?

you do a great service to folks like me - you oughta have a tip jar or something.  with your knowledge base, you ever think of making you tube videos?  you'd have a great following.

 

 

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 6:49 PM, XWrench3 said:

i think i bought the same petcock from ebay. i took it apart because i figured someone put it together improperly. the one i bought was made improperly. the reserve position CANNOT function because it is not made right. prime and on work fine. but when you are out of gas, your walking. i rebuilt the original. more expensive, but i will not have to walk.

yeah, the one I bought is like half the size of the original and it lacked the valve on the back.  I was told the back valve wasn't needed.  I was able to salvage the plastic straw-like pieces that draw in the fuel - they fit a bit tighter in my original petcock.  with the original I also put a thin layer of Permatex on the underside of the innermost gasket, a thin bead around the o-ring and a bit on the bent circular piece (likely didn't help here but whatevs) - and it hasn't leaked yet (this was about 1-2 months ago with gas in the tank).  once I start riding it again this may change, but right now it's tight as can be.

[Frank Angerano]

That’s great news brother!!! Very happy for you. Most likely going to need a carb cleaning. The only reason the over flow would act up like that is the float needs to be adjusted or the float has a crack in it and it’s filled with gas or the needle that the float raises up to shut the flow down has something (dirt/crud) stick in there. I posted a topic on cleaning a carb. Take a look, it walks you right through the process step by step. Not a big deal to do. 
Great work on getting the machine running. Once you get that carb straight I don’t  think your going  to have any more problems.  

Remember Quadcrazy is not only a help forum but a place to share and post your pics and rides so stay in touch! 
 

Enjoy and ride safe.

 

[Dra O]

carb is out and cleaned - bunch of same crap in float bowl that was in fuel tank (almost sawdust looking crap).  many of the holes on some of the internal screws were gummed up.  the air/fuel mixture screw had half of an o-ring and no washer protecting o-ring from spring.  everything from carb rebuild kit online fit flawlessly.

going to be reinstalling carb but had a few more questions:

1) the float height: my manual says 13mm - i'm pretty close to this using calipers and following angle of float bowl body (I hope so, anyway)

2) the needle groove notches - I THINK mine was set on 3rd or 4th groove - I don't remember - any idea the factory setting?  I figure the 3rd groove would be safe

3) I think I've read before where it's 2 5/8 turns out (on the air/fuel mixture screw (if that's the right piece) - is this right? 

4) people talk of "too rich" or "too lean" - what the world does this mean?  i'd like my quad to idle a bit revved up - that's just me - and I think I can adjust this on a piece on the side of the carb (took it off while cleaning carb - the end of it abuts the piece that opens the main valve - turn it one way, valve opens, turn it opposite way, valve closes)

5) after I install the carb, how will I tell if it's running optimally?  remember, I've not owned a quad before - this is all new to me.

6) last thing: how long to hose lines last?  my quad is a 1999 (300 LTF).  i'm worried about crap or build up on the inside of the lines.  would I be wise to replace all the lines going to the carb?  I figure I could find hose online - like a 50 foot role of it - for cheap.  does 0.5cm ID and 1cm OD sound about right?

any help/direction continues to be appreciated

 

[Frank Angerano]

 

1) the float height: my manual says 13mm - i'm pretty close to this using calipers and following angle of float bowl body (I hope so, anyway)
A) I always like to base my float level at 3/4 way up its starts to close off the duel be sure to read the carburetor cleaning write up as it explains exactly how i do it. 

2) the needle groove notches - I THINK mine was set on 3rd or 4th groove - I don't remember - any idea the factory setting?  I figure the 3rd groove would be safe

A) I think the third notch up is the proper position for that clip but always refer to the manual to be sure. If you have trouble finding it let me know.   

3) I think I've read before where it's 2 5/8 turns out (on the air/fuel mixture screw (if that's the right piece) - is this right? 

A) 2-1/4 turns out from a snug tight position is where i start at. Then once the engine is running and warmed up i lower the idle screw as low as i can without the engine shutting down. Then turn the air fuel mixture screw out and see if the engine starts to rev higher, if so great if not go back the opposite way. What you are looking to hear and achieve is to get that engine to rev to its highest point while adjusting that screw. That is the point where your air and fuel are mixing perfect. After that set the idle to a happy place around 800 to 1000 rpm. Not a high rev. 

4) people talk of "too rich" or "too lean" - what the world does this mean?  i'd like my quad to idle a bit revved up - that's just me - and I think I can adjust this on a piece on the side of the carb (took it off while cleaning carb - the end of it abuts the piece that opens the main valve - turn it one way, valve opens, turn it opposite way, valve closes)
A) The term rich or lean are as follows. RICH is where the fuel mixture is is to high this means  too much fuel is getting into the engine. LEAN is where the fuel getting to the engine is not quiet enough and its more air intake. This is all decided by the air/fuel mixture screw mentioned above  unless there is a faulty condition/restriction etc. If you want your engine to rev higher thats an idle screw adjustment on the carburetor. But be aware a higher rev is not good, it will make the atv jump when you go into gear and its bad for the gears. 

5) after I install the carb, how will I tell if it's running optimally?  remember, I've not owned a quad before - this is all new to me.

A) based on everything above and the said adjustments the engine should be at its optimal running point. A good way to determine this is after the engine is all adjusted and appears to be running good i like to pull the spark plug out and check the color of the plug, it should be a very light tanish color  as well as take it for a good rip and see how it responds.  

6) last thing: how long to hose lines last?  my quad is a 1999 (300 LTF).  i'm worried about crap or build up on the inside of the lines.  would I be wise to replace all the lines going to the carb?  I figure I could find hose online - like a 50 foot role of it - for cheap.  does 0.5cm ID and 1cm OD sound about right?
A) hoses to tend to break down after a long period of time especially from the inside and particles can wind up showing up in the carburetor so if your already in the area working then yes by all means change the hose. 

Hope this clears some things up.  
 

[Dra O]

slide clip from service manual reads  5D40-4th - i'm assuming this is the 4th slot - I reviewed a video of me taking out slide and it looked like 4th slot

pilot screw is 2 5/8 out - per service manual - I made it SNUG re: tightening it down - saw the tip in the barrel - then backed it out accordingly

the idle screw adjuster you mentioned - this is the adjustable screw on the bottom of the carb?  I would think this would be hard to reach once carb put back in but will see 

getting that beast back in is a kicker - I put forward-most side in first, as the coupling on this end doesn't "give" a whole lot - I may need to heat the air box side rubber connector to get it to soften - that thing will hardly depress enough to let me work with it.  could I not simply get a piece of thinner, more-pliable tubing (like from a radiator shop) and clamp it really tight?

once it's up and running, my aim is to post a video and have you listen to it at your convenience - unsure if can post videos

 

[Frank Angerano]

Getting them back in is a bit of a bi*** but they go. Sometimes you have to loosen the air box bolts a bit. 
The idle screw should not be hard to access. Post a pic of the screw your referring to. 

[Dra O]

I'm guessing the screw under the black hose in the pic is the idle screw - it's the only functional screw on the carb

other pic was the junk in the bowl

** was I right on turning the screew 2 5/8" back?  should I have screwed it down until I saw the needle, then backed it out 2 5/8"?

 

[Frank Angerano]

The screw under that black hose is the air/fuel screw.  Idle screw is on the side of the carburetor, either on the side or right where the throttle cable enters the carburetor 

That's your air fuel mixture screw. Picture attached.  
That screw should be 2-5/8 if thats what the manual calls for.   
idle should be on the side.      

[spock58]

Those Suzuki's had an idle speed adjustment usually connected to a short cable. This made it possible to set the speed without reaching into the carb which is buried. Quite often these either seized/broke or were not properly attached. The actual adjustment screw pushes onto the cam part that the throttle cable connects with. 

[Dra O]

thanks for joining in, spock - yes, I know the part you're talking about - it went back in easily - and I tested it by turning it back/forth to ensure it remained operable prior to starting engine

I reattached everything - had to sprinkle gas in air box but it started.

it idled pretty rough - but it smokes like rip - white smoke - it also would rev slightly higher without me having touched the gas lever, then would go back to normal idle.

it smoked a bit when I got it but not like this... I know it could be several things, but could it be the clean carb being "broken in" - if so, i'd expect the smoke to dissipate after a while

air filter is new and gas is fresh

the whining noise I am unsure about....

 

[Dra O]

and I did have to add grease to both ends of the rubber piece between air box and carb - maybe it's this burning off....? 

i'll get it out from my crawl space this weekend if it's dry and let it run a bit - the wife was pretty angry about the smoke  "but honey, I didn't know it was gonna smoke like that!"

if it's beyond repair and I can get a few hundred clams out of it, tell me - I can take it.  it's a 1999 and has 6100 miles on it

[Frank Angerano]

Is it a very light smoke and blueish ? If so thats oil.  Its an air cooled machine so we know its not coolant so it would have to be oil which mens either bad valve seals, rings etc. 

 

What i would do at this point is make sure you put everything back correctly and make sure the choke assembly is also correct. Then let it run for a little bit and see how it settles down after its warmed up.  The smoke should somewhat clear. Make the adjustment on the air/fuel screw and get the engine tuned. Once this is done if it still smokes a lot then you will have to make a decision on how far you want to go with fixing it.  

[Dra O]

sage advice, frank.  I was thinking last night I may've hooked a hose up backward but I filmed the entire process. 

the smoke is white - couldn't discern it having any blue tint but could be wrong.  i'll look closer this weekend when it's in my back yard.

were you able to see the short video?  I can't open it on my work computer.

[Frank Angerano]

I cant see it because i only use my phone but im going to start using my laptop when I'm home.  

[Dra O]

the smoke has calmed down - it's idling pretty good but still rough - no leaking under the machine - engine not overtly-hot after about 10 minutes of running - the whining noise has abated

when I press throttle it bogs down a good bit - I even advanced it slowly but it bogged down about 1/4 of the way in -- when I stopped the engine and let it set for 2-3 minutes, it would start w/ no issues, I could open the throttle all the way and it would howl... but then I'd let it idle, try to push the throttle and it would bog down again

I let it set for 10 minutes, had to press throttle to get it to run, it idled for about a minute before cutting off

to adjust the needle valve, I've either got to remove the carb every time or bend the end of an old slot head screwdriver 90 degrees and hope this works - that's gonna be challenging

I was able to open the movie attachment above w/ windows media player - unsure if you'll be able to

[davefrombc]

You  can  get  flexible screwdrivers .  Walmart  carries  several  different takes on them according to  the  hit on this search.

https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/flexible-screwdrivers

[Dra O]

dig it - thanks dave.  feel free to add any advice on the topic at hand!  i'm a newbie with zero ATV experience

[davefrombc]

I  have done  next to  zero  work  on ATVs  myself other than  maintaining my own and helping friends with minor repairs and welding.  I  have  messed with old school  cars which  are very  comparable to non-electronic controlled  ATVs.  A  carb is a carb  whether it is  on as  car , ATV  or any other machine ..  They   may be  built and look different  but they  all  mix fuel  and  air  to  run. The trick  is  finding all  the  quirks  in how each is jetted and adjusted .. That's where manuals and advice from  owners of similar  machines come in. As far  as the electrical  end of it  comes ,  I'm  comfortable  with  points and coils,  but  have to  rely  on advice from  others  and,  again,  manuals  when  dealing  with CDI boxes and  electronics on newer  ATVs.  I  know  my way  around multimeters and  basic electricity.  Got  my  HAM ticket  back  in the  '70s so  learned a  lot of electrical theory  to  do  that . I'm a retired  Millwright  and  have tinkered  with  cars since my  first one  over  60  years ago,  so   I do  know the frustration of  working in tight   spaces  at times fixing things that  engineers  designed to  be  easy to  build  but hell to  maintain.

Most of the time when  someone  has a  problem  I  might be able to  help  with,  Frank  beats  me  to it  and  gives  very  good advice . I  can  only  add  a little  to  some of it  some of the time .

I  spend entirely too  much time  on my  computer  so  I  do  know my way  around searching  for  answers  to  all  sorts of things.  The  flexible  screwdrivers  offered  today  are a lot more refined than  back in the  day  I  bought  one..  Old  ones  were  simply  a flat  head  with  a  cable  like  shaft and handle.  I  never  saw any  with  a  Philips  or any  Robertson head.  Now  they  generally  all  have heads where  you  can  use any of the  various inserts.

Good  luck   on getting that  carb tuned .. Takes a bit  of  time  and  patience  ..... and  far too  often  a lot of   ummmmm   " Verbal  lubrication" to  get  the  job  done. 

[Frank Angerano]

Hahaha verbal lubrication  lmao. @davefrombc that was great stuff right there! A carburetor is a carburetor is a carburetor! 

One thing I'm going to add to this topic is, I've loosened the carburetor clamps up and rotated it to remove the bowl and float while the carburetor was still on the machine. 
I have also dropped the pin that holds the float and the fill valve needle which took me forever to locate! So if your going down that road then be sure to add a rag or something bright and that if something should fall its got a bright and contained landing area. 
My personal opinion is to remove the carb since its not to difficult to do after you get the hang of it and getting that needle back up in there is not so easy to do while its on the engine.  
 

[Dra O]

took it to back yard and everything went blank.  battery is new - it was a 15 amp fuse in front.  thank goodness - was ready to throw in the towel.

I ran it around my yard and, after it got warmed up, it bogged down BADLY while pressing the throttle - sounds flooded - had to inch back to workshop... uphill, of course

played with the "governor" thing that taps in to carb to rev up/slow down the idle but this didn't help matters.  I put the clip at 3 spaces versus 4 and this didn't help.  I ran it without the air filter and this didn't help.

you think it's still the idle screw on bottom of carb?  I did loosen it up a bit like you mentioned - I think I can get a tiny screw driver up under it to adjust needle. 

** if I do take the carb off again - not an issue - remember I came out 2 5/8 turns on the screw - do I need to go out to 3 1/2 turns or will this be letting MORE gas in and flood it even more?

you're taking a LOT of time with me and I appreciate it, frank - I remain keenly aware that it gets old - but I appreciate your continued assistance.

some good news: I may can get the bearings on all tires changed for under $300 at a local Polaris dealer - other mom/pop shops wanted $500

 

[Frank Angerano]

No worries on the time spent helping out. Thats what Quadcrazy is here for. 
I honestly feel like the air fuel screw is to far out. I would set it at 2-1/4 out from a snug position. 
NOW i know you cleaned the carburetor and reassembled it and probably did and amazing job.  Problem is sometimes we miss things or something has gotten back inside the carburetor. Are you 100% sure the gas tank is clean and not full of dirt ? If so add a fuel filter. 
 

So I would pull the carburetor one more time and open it up to inspect the ports, orafaces and jets.   Make sure its clean and blow out all the holes and Jets etc with compressed air.
Reset the clip on the main jet needle as per the manual and adjust the float so that the fuel stops flowing at about 3/4 way up.  You can verify this by leaving the bowl off of the carburetor and putting a clean hose on the fuel line inlet on the carb. Hold the carb so its in the proper right side up position and blow into the hose. You should hear air coming from the fill needle. Slowly raise the float up with your hand while blowing and it should stop at around 3/4 way up. If so your good to go on that, if not make the adjustment.
 

Set the air fuel screw as i mentioned and put it all together.  Remember what we discussed, the air fuel screw is the small screw that's underneath the carb and goes into the carburetor the one I circled in the pic a few posts back.  
Its a pain in the as* to adjust when its back on the atv especially while its running so you have to take a small flat head screwdriver and cut it to about 3 inches or so long and then add a little tape to the end so you can turn it with your hand. Before you make any adjustments when you get the carburetor back on try running the atv at 2-1/4 out and see how it goes. If not make the adjustment while the engine is running. Come out a quarter turn at a time. 

I'm sure this sounds like a lot but its all doable and takes time but it pays off.  
I cant tell you how many times I've had to pull a carburetor again. 
Just keep your patients.

 

[davefrombc]

Bogging  is  more often  a  lean  problem than rich.. As Frank  said ,  I'd pull the carb once more  and  look for any tiny, and I mean  tiny   holes in the tubes  to the  jets . They  can be  missed very easily  because they're so  small  and  not a  brass jet  as  the  bigger ones  are . I  don't  know  if  your  carb  has the  holes  I'm  talking about  but  many  do.. Carbs  and fuel  mixture  settings  are  often accompanied by  a  lot  of  my  verbal  lubrication  here.  Sometimes I wish  I was multi-lingual  so  I'd  have  access to  a  broader range  of  "lubricant  " phrases. They're so  handy  when fiddling  with the small stuff  and  much  better to  use them than  start tossing  tools   LOL

 

[Dra O]

i only read the top part of your post on my phone - laptop showed me the rest - i'll tackle those steps next.

i didn't have to loosen the throttle cable and other piece this time - was able to turn carb on its side to reset the air fuel screw - i backed it out from snug to 2 1/4 turns and the throttle went in almost half way - this is progress.  i may back it to 2 and see what it does just for kicks. 

getting excited about this - will keep you posted