2020 Presidential Election Discussion Thread

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

Yeah well you can have him.. And good luck with it... It doesn't really look like it's going so well from over here..

davefrombc · January 3, 2021

Far too many fail to realize it is foreign trade that pays the bills at home .. American industry and agriculture would be in terrible shape if they could only deal in domestic markets . every country depends on trade with other countries. It's what pays the big bills and employs people . When you have friends and family on both sides of the border and your job depends on international trade you also should understand at least something about others . Yes, quadmaniac I know a little about US education. As I said it's hard not to when you have family and friends in both countries . I don't know how it is now but I would guess it isn't a lot different when I was in school in the '50's. Most of our text books were printed in the US and very heavy with US content with a nod to our own history and a mention there were other countries ut there somewhere.

The right in the US likes to vilify anyone in the center and left. Accusations against the Clintons, , Biden and others before them are constantly being made without a shred of evidence of wrongdoing despite investigation after investigation. Mention social reforms and programs that benefit all , not just the rich and you get the screams of "SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM" without any understanding of what both of those systems are and that they are unworkable except in very small communities, but the military / industrial powers have used those scare words to keep control for the last century. Social programs and social responsibility are not communism ... and democracy is a form of socialism. Without socialism you do not have a society. Where do you think the word came from? If you are a Christian and believe in Christ's principles and teaching then if you put them into practice , you are practicing socialism. tRump has been dividing the country not for any particular agenda. He is a narcissist, thinking only of himself .He has no empathy , or responsibility . Everything he does is to try to enhance himself and he couldn't care less who it hurts as long as he gets what he wants . He is a product of the worst of America , not the best.

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

Yup.. Here it's big business that does nearly all the exporting, and they pay most of the taxes.. and dividends. And it's the taxes, corporate and private, that give us a free health system, education, social security, and all the infrastructure...

And we have good relations, and cooperative trade arrangements, that benefit everyone involved.

Not only that.. People like Kiwis.. We go on peacekeeping missions.. armed with guitars, not guns.. Haha.. seriously.. We send out male and female peacekeepers and they leave their guns behind.. And it works, where years and years of armed attempts have failed..

And we've got the "America's Cup"... hehe.

I'll shut up now...

JustRandy · January 3, 2021

1 hour ago, Mech said:

And it's the taxes, corporate and private, that give us a free health system, education, social security, and all the infrastructure...

US - 37% individual top rate, 21% corporate, 0% sales tax, 15.3% social security of which employer pays half.

Canada - 33% individual top rate, 26.5% corporate, 5% sales tax, 14% social security of which employer pays over half.

New Zealand - 33% individual top rate, 28% corporate, 15% sales tax, employee pays 8% and employers pays 3% social security tax.

https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/personal-income-tax-rate

New Zealand taxes the poor more than US and Canada.

It takes a decade to become a NZ citizen, but billionaires are instant. Kiwis should wise up.

I don't think any US state has more than a 10% sales tax and it's usually only in states with zero income tax.

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

None of that disproves what I said if that's your intention...

Anything else ?

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

Most people pay a lot less personal tax than that site you cite says. I was self employed and paid about ten percent. My sons are both self employed and pay about ten percent. We don't have a social security tax. We have a voluntary retirement fund you can join, and the govt and employer both contribute if you do. We have a tax on consumption, called GST, it's 15%. We pay a tax on land we own which pays for local infrastructure, libraries, pools, non-highway roading, public halls etc.

We have very few homeless people living on the street, and they are often doing it by choice.. mostly young people. Health care is free and income support is available to all. The govt pays a pension fund to everyone over 65 no matter your circumstances.The govt has public housing which at the moment is short of houses following a big sell off a few years ago of old stock. There's a building initiative on at the moment to correct that, in the meantime they are providing "emergency housing", in motels.

People in New Zealand are well taken care of and there is practically no racial or any other sort of discrimination. Discrimination because of race, religion, sexuality, or impairment of any sort is banned and enforced by law.

Most people enjoy a good standard of living.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Mech

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

So tell me what your grudge with New Zealand is, and I'll see if I can answer them for you.

I'm not sure what the relevance of citizenship is unless you think we are sellouts for money.. We aren't. We are an independent lot.. Check out our nuclear free policies which was one source of disagreement with America when we first implemented it. America seems to have accepted we make our own choices. Check out our policies on free trade. We are very careful to remain independent on all matters on the world stage, and get respected for it.

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

Double posted.. One thing we do get at the bottom of the world is laggy internet. And expensive imports..

Edited January 3, 2021 by Mech

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

And just to reiterate J, and others, my beef with the ex-big T is that's he's been trying to curb free trade, which effects us down here, and that he's a threat to world peace, which effects us down here

If you think we, little old New Zealand, is stepping on your toes in some way. well I'm happy to discuss that..

Fire away with any genuine concerns or criticisms..

davefrombc · January 3, 2021

The top rate taxes have little bearing on the real world taxes paid . Those top rates are on net income after all deductions. Far too many millionaires pay less income taxes than the cashiers at local stores or service workers . Far to many corporations that were profitable end up paying zero taxes and claim subsidies in both the US and Canada. There's another factor never considered in when surveys comparing taxes are quoted. What are those taxes paying for ? How much goes into social programs and infrastructure, things that benefit everyone and how much goes into military spending in the desire to be the dominant power in the world? How many of those tax dollars go into programs that help internationally and build friends for the country and how much of it is spent on actions bringing hatred to those trying to dominate and exploit other countries resources ?

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

Guitars... aim and fire..

**Mech** · January 3, 2021

I believe you guys Dave have a similar relationship with the Americans, to what we have with the Aussies across the ditch from us. They view us as the poor country cousins, and a bit slow, and we think they're load arrogant and brash.. Not saying any of it's true though..

It makes for a bit of good friendly rivalry and kidding.. As it should be.

The Aussies are always trying to win the rugby against us, and the cricket, and basketball, and sailing, and they like to claim our race horses as celebrities as their own... We let them sometimes..

I think you should cut your buddies over there some slack..

JustRandy · January 3, 2021

1 hour ago, Mech said:

Most people pay a lot less personal tax than that site you cite says.

That is true anywhere, but the point is to show the tax on the rich and compare it to the tax on the poor across different countries.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

We don't have a social security tax.

Then what is this? https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/social-security-rate

The Kiwisaver Rate in New Zealand stands at 11 percent. source: New Zealand Inland Revenue Department

1 hour ago, Mech said:

We have a tax on consumption, called GST, it's 15%.

That's sales tax. Europe calls it a VAT tax. It's a tax on the poor. If someone has zero income, they pay no tax on income, but they still pay sales tax.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

We pay a tax on land we own which pays for local infrastructure

Same in the US. Schools are funded through property taxes until retirement when the school tax is waived.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

We have very few homeless people living on the street, and they are often doing it by choice.. mostly young people.

Hmm.. maybe because of suicide? “Horrendous” increase in New Zealand suicide rates https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/09/nzsu-s09.html

1 hour ago, Mech said:

practically no racial or any other sort of discrimination.

Yeah but NZ is not very diverse. "As at the 2018 census, the majority of New Zealand's population is of European descent (70 percent), with the indigenous Māori being the largest minority (16.5 percent), followed by Asians (15.3 percent), and non-Māori Pacific Islanders (9.0 percent)."

2 hours ago, Mech said:

Discrimination because of race, religion, sexuality, or impairment of any sort is banned and enforced by law.

Same in the US.

1 hour ago, Mech said:

So tell me what your grudge with New Zealand is, and I'll see if I can answer them for you.

Nothing really. I just didn't care for the way kiwis dutifully handed in their rifles in response to one shooting and based on others I've talked to who live there, there is quite a bit of poverty. You brought up the taxes funding healthcare and I was just pointing out that the tax situation is not too different across the 3 countries, so the US doesn't have free healthcare for reasons other than taxes. And NZ taxes the poor too heavy in my opinion.

2 hours ago, Mech said:

I'm not sure what the relevance of citizenship is unless you think we are sellouts for money

Well yeah, you are. NZ is where billionaires have their bunkers. I watched a documentary on it and discovered it takes 10 years to become a citizen unless you're a billionaire. The NZ gov doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the bunkers.