China virus

[quadmaniac]

16 hours ago, quadmaniac said:

Eventually you run out of unvaccinated to blame.

To this point…it’s good that fewer are critical, but can we agree that hospitals are not being overrun by the unvaccinated and it’s no longer a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”? It’s getting pretty silly for the media to fixate on the unvaccinated in the US. Everyone knows that vaccinated are getting sick as well at this point and are spreaders just as much.

CDC: More vaccinated adults hospitalized with omicron, but fewer admitted to ICU

A higher proportion of adults hospitalized with COVID-19 during the period of omicron dominance were fully vaccinated compared to the period of delta dominance, according to a new analysis, but those people were also less likely to be severely ill or die.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/592847-cdc-more-vaccinated-adults-hospitalized-with-omicron-but-fewer-admitted-to?amp

[davefrombc]

It's still a far higher percentage of unvaccinated being hospitalized  with the virus than of the fully vaccinated.. The reason you're seeing more vaccinated in the hospitalized numbers is because of the Omicron variant breaking through the vaccinations than  the Delta and earlier variants ,plus the fact that well over  half the population is now vaccinated. 

(  From  usafacts.org)  Feb. 2 "At least 250,378,993 people or 76% of the population have received at least one dose.

Overall, 212,130,684 people or 65% of the population have been fully vaccinated."

Yet  the percentage of  hospitalizations is still about 60% unvaccinated and 40% vaccinated, and  of those hospitalized the severity and death rates are  many times lower among the vaccinated than  of the unvaccinated..  Tell  me  JR why  is the admission  rate 60%  unvaccinated when the population rate is only 35% unvaccinated ? The Vaccines work in  both reducing  the load on the hospitals and in protecting people from  serious outcomes  when  infected. As I said before , I am  very thankful  the internet wasn't around for  vaccine deniers  and conspiracy theorists to  spread their misinformation to  convince so  many to refuse vaccination  when the  Polio vaccines first came out.  Had it been , I'm  afraid they would not have brought it  under control  nearly as fast as they did.

We were also  very fortunate to  not have administrations like  the tRump one to  initially  deny the  existence of the pandemic and seriously  delay the efforts to  bring it b under control.. In that  tRump  and his minions were not alone unfortunately. We had our  deniers in  provincial legislators and too slow an  uptake in out federal  government. Boris Johnson  ( in some ways a tRump  clone) and  some of the other European  governments were also  far to  slow to  take the pandemic seriously.

 

[Mech]

I read your words Randy, but I skip the cut-n-pastes.

It just keeps coming back to your need to try and convince people that your choice not to get the jab is the right one, and that to buy into the "fear tactics",(not your words but a commonly heard cry from the anti),  is stupid, gullible, driven by fear etc.. I'm not interested. You are welcome to your opinions and choices. 

I just keep questioning your need to do that...

 

 

[JustRandy]

2 hours ago, davefrombc said:

It's still a far higher percentage of unvaccinated being hospitalized  with the virus than of the fully vaccinated..

Can you tell me why more unvaccinated are dying of things other than covid?

NON-COVID DEATHS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkVsXOZguLg

We can see that the unvaccinated group is 6660.

One dose is 1157

Two doses is 5143

Can you tell me how the covid vaccine protects people from EVERY cause of death?

How does it protect against accidents?  Is it magic?

Once you answer that question you will know why more unvaccinated are hospitalized for covid because it's the same reason more unvaccinated are hospitalized for car crashes.

Can you solve the puzzle?

So it's merely the case that people who choose to get vaccines are already healthy and responsible people who wouldn't have a problem with covid regardless of the vaccine.

So the vaccine doesn't do anything.  It may as well be a rabbit's foot or lucky charm.

This isn't rocket science.

You don't need to be a genius to get it.

Think about people you know who are unvaccinated.  Are they less healthy than the vaccinated ones?

Mom is fat with heart disease and is unvaccinated.  Dad is in perfect health and double vaxxed.  Who would fare better with covid?

Dad had covid in july 2020 (before the vax existed) and it barely affected him.  It just made him tired with slight fever.  He never stopped working the garden.  Mom never had it.

This is like the 4th or 5th time I've gone over this.  I don't know why y'all can't get it.  Maybe the pics will help.

[JustRandy]

2 hours ago, Mech said:

I read your words Randy, but I skip the cut-n-pastes.

What cut n pastes?

2 hours ago, Mech said:

It just keeps coming back to your need to try and convince people that your choice not to get the jab is the right one,

We already established I don't have that need.  The topic could be about the shape of the earth and I'd argue just as vociferously simply because I like to argue.

2 hours ago, Mech said:

I'm not interested.

Which is why you keep replying.

2 hours ago, Mech said:

I just keep questioning your need to do that...

Right because establishing motives is the path to truth.

[Mech]

We agree about your last sentence.

People use facts, and statistics, and even describe the reality of a situation, to deceive. It happens all the time. It's as common as.

Truth is not facts or the reality of the situation. Truth is a character manifestation of animals. Truth s the opposite of deceit or deception.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Mech

[davefrombc]

JR  Have you ever considered the possibility of the ones getting the mRNA  vaccines having a lower mortality  risk may be  because they  are better educated and as a result are healthier and better able to assess risks associated with activities and diet? You  know, maybe a little less "Hold my beer and watch this"  among the egg heads than  "the Good Ole Boys". It would be interesting to  see the results of a study of rates of uptake of the vaccines between the different education levels of the population. 

I  just did a search on education on both health and vaccine uptake. and found many sites quoting results of studies on both. All  show both general  health and vaccine uptake  are greater among the better educated, with increasing levels  as education level increases. There is also a  rather significant split between  urban abs rural  areas in vaccine acceptance. Feel  free to  search for legitimate sitew to refute those facts.

 

[JustRandy]

9 minutes ago, Mech said:

We agree about your last sentence.

My last sentence was sarcasm.  You seem to judge positions based on anything but the substance of the position.  You look at motives, presentation and form, but not the substance which is the only thing that counts.  That was my point.

[Mech]

I live rural and I'd agree that we rurals feel less urgency to get vaccinated, for fairly obvious reasons. I think though that the eventual uptake is probably about the same between my city associates and locals. The educational, (and possibly socio-economic)  relationships though I do think are as you suggest Dave. Just my personal observations though.

If you say so Randy.

[Mech]

By substance you mean facts ?

I look for truth, and when we look for truth, we see it even where there are no facts often, and we see the absence of truth even in a torrent of facts..

[Mech]

There can be more truth in a heart-felt opinion, that's completely devoid of facts, than some other detailed explanation of a heap of facts being offered through insincere or unrealised motives.

I prefer truth to facts, and candor to intelligence.

You asked earlier whether I was religious. I'm not. I'm a philosopher. I live my life on philosophical principles.

[Mech]

Your concerns and fear of being conned, or pressured into accepting things, and personal welfare, are not things that concern me.

I'm interested in the human condition, and people. Forums are a good place to study these things.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Mech

[JustRandy]

32 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

Have you ever considered the possibility of the ones getting the mRNA  vaccines having a lower mortality  risk may be  because they  are better educated and as a result are healthier and better able to assess risks associated with activities and diet?

Yes I have but I don't believe the education causes them to be more responsible.  I believe they were always responsible which is why they pursued the education.  The education is not a cause, but an effect.

People who are better educated tend to be more responsible people who "do the right thing" such as getting vaccinated and living a healthier lifestyle while taking less risks (wear seatbelts, helmets, etc).  But that doesn't mean the vaccine is the right thing to do, it just means they BELIEVE it is the right thing to do, so they all tend to do it.

Educated people aren't necessarily smarter who do more research, they're just less rebellious and more conformists.  They take less risks and challenge authority less.  So if the authority says to take a vaccine, they take it without question because it's their nature to conform.

Less educated people tend to be less responsible or perhaps mired in poverty which is essentially a never ending emergency so maybe they never get around to the vaccine or maybe they distrust the authorities, particularly if the authority starts pushing the vaccine really hard.  The harder it's pushed, the more they resist.

And what explains the high vaccination rate among blacks?  Are they better educated?  No, but they're less rural, as opposed to Hispanics who are very rural.  Urban and sububanites are more conformists because they live more communally than ruralites who are more independent.

I think what it boils down to is propensity to conform and obey authority.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/9uqg6clnvr/econTabReport.pdf

But none of this is relevant to whether the vaccine is either safe or effective.

[JustRandy]

37 minutes ago, Mech said:

By substance you mean facts ?

I look for truth, and when we look for truth, we see it even where there are no facts often, and we see the absence of truth even in a torrent of facts..

If I say 2+2=4, then how I present myself has nothing to do with whether the statement is true.  My motives for saying 2+2=4 has nothing to do with the substance of my statement.  If I call you a bunch of names, that doesn't mean my statement is false.  If I have nefarious motives for making my statement, that still doesn't mean my statement is false.

Facts and truth are not the same.  Facts are a consensus of opinion that are generally regarded to be true, but might not be.  Truth is irrelevant to how many people believe it.

[JustRandy]

42 minutes ago, Mech said:

You asked earlier whether I was religious. I'm not. I'm a philosopher. I live my life on philosophical principles.

I don't remember asking that.  Maybe you took a reference to faith the wrong way.  I too love philosophy.

35 minutes ago, Mech said:

Your concerns and fear of being conned, or pressured into accepting things, and personal welfare, are not things that concern me.

Me neither.  I'm worried about others.

35 minutes ago, Mech said:

I'm interested in the human condition, and people. Forums are a good place to study these things.

So like me you're just doing what is fun.  I've always like puzzles and this is just another one.

[JustRandy]

This is what is really scary:

A shockingly large portion of Democrats favor draconian penalties for the unvaccinated; 55% are in favor of fines; 59% think unvaccinated people should be placed under house arrest; 48% say government should be allowed to fine or even imprison anyone who questions the effectiveness of the COVID jab; 45% approve of segregating the unvaccinated into internment camps; and 29% endorse removing children from parents who refuse the jab.  https://www.tampafp.com/poll-nearly-half-of-democrats-support-fines-segregated-camps-and-prison-terms-for-those-who-disagree-with-them-on-covid/

For a vaccine that doesn't work against what's essentially little more than a common cold.

If those totalitarians get into power there is no way out without a revolution.

[Mech]

Yeah bummer about living in America..

And yeah I am amusing myself.. I said straight off that I found the strawman arguments and the attempts at hard sell amusing.(paraphrasing)... and interesting. Not the "arguments", I don't find them interesting, or the hard sell, but that you would bother trying to do that.. that you would continue doing that even after I'd suggested it was futile and that the almighty facts were irrelevant to me.. But you really are determined... And I don't really think we've heard the real reason for that yet... I'm not sure you even know yourself.. I think your intellect and it's friend the Ego gets the better of you Randy.

You do know what the human condition is don't you ? That conflict between what we know could be, how we could be, how we could behave, and our inability to be those things. That internal conflict is the folly that the human condition is.

But keep on trying.. I'm sure there will be someone that needs to hear why the vaccine is the greater of two evils.. About how it doesn't even stop us getting the virus, or stop it's transmission, and how we have to fight for our freedoms.. 

 

Too bad there isn't somebody we could just bomb to get rid of this problem.. Perhaps those evil Chinese people.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Mech

[JustRandy]

30 minutes ago, Mech said:

Yeah bummer about living in America..

Bummer about living in NZ.  I trade the Kiwi so I follow events there somewhat closely and having Mama Bear Ardern locking the island down over 1 case is horrifying... and an utter failure to accomplish anything other than massacring the economy.

33 minutes ago, Mech said:

suggested it was futile

What is not futile?

33 minutes ago, Mech said:

and that the almighty facts were irrelevant to me

Ah.  That makes you religious.  Opinions formed on faith is religion.

"That which enters the mind through reason can be corrected. That which is admitted through faith, hardly ever." - Santiago Ramon y Cajal

37 minutes ago, Mech said:

But you really are determined... And I don't really think we've heard the real reason for that yet

I told you repeatedly: this is fun.  Why can't you understand that?  Oh I forgot, facts are irrelevant to you.  You continue in your faith that I must have some other reason for my exercises in futility.

You're putting me under a microscope futilely in search of what can't be found.

39 minutes ago, Mech said:

I'm not sure you even know yourself.

Fun has no explanation.  The right answer is always "I don't know."

You should listen to this:

Pay particular attention around 2:00

There is no purpose.  There are no reasons.  Welcome to philosophy: the futile study of nothing

[Mech]

Ha.. futile study about nothing huh..

N.Z. is doing well.. Your comment sounds like sour grapes.. We get a bit of that.

[JustRandy]

5 minutes ago, Mech said:

Ha.. futile study about nothing huh..

Yep, you got it.

5 minutes ago, Mech said:

N.Z. is doing well..

Is that why the Kiwi keeps plunging?

5 minutes ago, Mech said:

Your comment sounds like sour grapes.. We get a bit of that.

North Korea gets a lot of sour grapes too.

[Mech]

People are jealous of North Korea ? 

Who ?  I know America would like to take them out, but I didn't think it was because they were jealous.. Then.. America would like to take China out, and Iran, and Afghanistan, and Russia.. And get rid of Moslem..  Get rid of anything that "threatens" American freedom huh..  Perhaps they can drum up some more non-existent weapons of mass destruction..  

Better for you all to start another foreign war than have a civil war/revolution I guess..

Bring back Chump..

Me though.. I'm glad to be a Kiwi..  We don't have all those threats to our "rights".

[Mech]

Have you heard about N.Z.s peace making/keeping work..

We send female soldiers out with the boys on night maneuvers, armed with guitars..haha.

They visit villages for the night, sit around a fire and play guitar and sing, and hear what's bugging that side, then the next night they go to the village on the other side and hear them out and explain what the other side of the conflict thinks..  And back and forwards they go till it's all sorted..  No weapons needed.

[JustRandy]

13 minutes ago, Mech said:

People are jealous of North Korea ? 

Who ? 

Evidently democrats and Kiwis.  Both are marching that direction.

13 minutes ago, Mech said:

Better for you all to start another foreign war than have a civil war/revolution I guess..

That looks like the plan.

13 minutes ago, Mech said:

Bring back Chump..

You miss him?

13 minutes ago, Mech said:

Me though.. I'm glad to be a Kiwi..  We don't have all those threats to our "rights".

Because you don't have any rights to threaten lol

I guess freedom is another word for nothing left to lose.  https://youtu.be/CQ-QfMv7Fzw?t=47

[Mech]

See above...

Yup well you are the land of the free..  

[Mech]

Here's to the best America has to offer...  Jim Beam !  

Cheers..

Just kidding just kidding..  American people are fine people in the main.. even if your governments have been bloody war mongers ! 

And Randy, it's not the Kiwis that are being threatened with lock up if we don't get the jab..  We were asked nicely and most of us have got it now.

What I've found here is that those of us that have willingly got the jab, don't feel threatened at all by any curtailing of our right to attend large gatherings. Those that have refused on the basis that they don't like being told what to do(none of them were ever told what to do), are the ones now that are digging their feet in and saying it's not fair and they shouldn't be discriminated against.. There's a certain "catch twenty-two", in that I think.. It's all about free will, and who has it, and who doesn't..  No religion implied. Some people forfeit their will, free or otherwise, to that human condition I was talking about.

 

 

[JustRandy]

14 minutes ago, Mech said:

Here's to the best America has to offer...  Jim Beam !  

That syrup is horrible.  Hopefully you're not attempting to choke that down.  I really can't recommend any US whiskey... whisky is from Scotland.

17 minutes ago, Mech said:

even if your governments have been bloody war mongers !

We hate it too.  I haven't met anyone anywhere who wants war with anyone other than our own government.  We don't have a choice... they give us 2 candidates to choose from and we have to pick the one we hate the least... and both always want war.

The corporations are running things and they want war because money.  Plus it distracts from the colossal mess the puppet in chief has made of things in futile hope of salvaging the midterms.

In China they say they can change the policies but not the party; in America we can change the party but not the policies.  That's about the most succinct way of putting it.

28 minutes ago, Mech said:

it's not the Kiwis that are being threatened with lock up if we don't get the jab..  We were asked nicely and most of us have got it now.

Yeah you dutifully handed in your guns too after that church shooting.  Willing volunteering is even more horrifying than being forced.  At least in the US there are enough dissenters to fight the narrative, but NZ is hopeless.

Like I said before, if everyone already complied, then your rights aren't threatened since you don't have any to lose.

36 minutes ago, Mech said:

What I've found here is that those of us that have willingly got the jab, don't feel threatened at all by any curtailing of our right to attend large gatherings.

You spelled "gotten neutered" wrong.

37 minutes ago, Mech said:

Those that have refused on the basis that they don't like being told what to do(none of them were ever told what to do), are the ones now that are digging their feet in and saying it's not fair and they shouldn't be discriminated against.. There's a certain "catch twenty-two", in that I think.. It's all about free will, and who has it, and who doesn't..  No religion implied. Some people forfeit their will, free or otherwise, to that human condition I was talking about.

I don't get where you're going with that.

[Mech]

Yeah we agree about whisky too..  I'm sipping a bourbon lemon and water.. with brown sugar.. 

I'm suggesting that everything is just how we perceive it to be.. 

And I half heard that some country in Europe is clamping right down on people without jabs.. So if your dear Govt does it it won't be the first.

And for the record Randy.. we have almost full freedom here.. Our "go hard and go early", was for one month, then our biggest city was locked down a few times temporarily.  We cant have rock concerts is about the worst of it. Inflation's the worst in years, theirs a housing shortage, but the economy is doing fine. The people are for the most part fairly satisfied with our covid response.

[JustRandy]

I'm not sure everything is how we perceive it to be because I make too many mistakes for that to be true

We have full freedom here too because our government can't go against our constitution.  The problem here is the unaccountable private tyrannies otherwise known as private property acting as an arm of the government to skirt the constitution.  That's the power of fascism.

Back in 2020, government places were the ONLY places that didn't require masks (post office, voting, etc).  Walmart et al did but eventually relented because not all our residents are neutered.  Having a population that won't stand for that nonsense has its advantages.

After our regime change in 2021 US gov places required masks but once again the population to the rescue because they simply don't obey and by now everyone is seeing the futility of fighting a common cold so management is not being very insistent.

Mostly it's medical places that require masks and vaccinations as most others decided making money is more important than being tyrannical.  Facebook for instance lost 1 million users and $200 billion in value for their love of tyranny.

So you see how important it is to have a population of rebels that simply won't bend over.  Kiwis on the other hand seem to be begging for someone to tell them what to do.  Maybe that's ok for now but where will it end?

And the irony is:

 

[Mech]

Yeah well as long as you're all happy eh..

Have you ever been to N.Z. Randy ?

[JustRandy]

55 minutes ago, Mech said:

Have you ever been to N.Z. Randy ?

Nope.