2020 Presidential Election Discussion Thread

[Ajmboy]

We had a topic and poll going on  for 2016 presidential election here. This is now for 2020. Please be respectable with open discussion and please vote 🙂

[JustRandy]

6 hours ago, Ajmboy said:

Please be respectable with open discussion and please vote

But you didn't vote lol!  I am the only one who voted so far (and I guess it's pretty evident for who lol).

[davefrombc]

I voted in the poll too but unfortunately I can't vote in the US election. I do hope there is an overwhelming vote in all states by those not blinded by the tRump cult. The GOP of today is definitely not the GOP of Lincoln's time. To far too many of us it mirrors Germany of the 1930's.

[GrizzlyRider]

Although I'm not voting for Biden, I'm not voting for Trump because he is a model president...but out of the two I'd rather see him stay in office. I was not a fan of Obama/Biden even though I voted for Obama and then Romney. Lately democrats are just too far left for me and Biden really does have some "old age" coming out, which I don't think is well suited to be the commander in chief. They really should have put up a better candidate. I'm somewhere in the middle but leaning more republican. Polls however show Biden in the lead and if he wins without having any real platform except to get rid of Trump, Hillary is going to freak out....I bet she wishes she got back in it one more time...lol.

[JustRandy]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyRider said:

They really should have put up a better candidate.

The DNC went to all the trouble of rigging the primary to get Biden in there to stop Bernie and Medicare For All in order to protect the rich.  They admitted in court that they rigged it in 2016 for Hillary and it's the right of a corporation to conduct its own election any way it sees fit, including rigging it, and that since Bernie donors knew it was rigged when they donated they were not entitled to refunds and the case was dismissed.  I think they're appealing to higher court now.  Backstabbing Bernie is the #1 reason I'm voting for Trump. 

The US general election is essentially a republican primary.  If Biden were actually on the left, I would vote for him, but Biden exists specifically to stop progressives and that's why they're propping up a sick old man.

https://observer.com/2017/08/court-admits-dnc-and-debbie-wasserman-schulz-rigged-primaries-against-sanders/
http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/wasserman-schultz-dnc-rigged-primary-judge-dismisses-fraud-lawsuit

Once Biden is installed, Obamacare (ie Romneycare) will be entrenched which will forever prevent Medicare For All.  Obamacare puts the burden of healthcare on the middle class with high premiums while the rich profit.  Medicare For All puts the burden on the rich.  That is why billionaires support Biden over Trump 2 to 1.  That's why Biden is raking in the money while Trump is collecting small donations (like Bernie).  That's why the media and every establishment is making it seem so imperative that Biden wins.  If Trump wins, then it's a mere 4 years until progressives can try again, but if Biden wins then progressives are done for at least 12 years.

Our only hope at this point is the SCOTUS will strike down Obamacare which will leave Medicare For All as the only possibility.

 

Biden and the DNC are the greatest evil and that's why I'm voting R down the line.

 

[davefrombc]

Medicare for all is really Obamacare under another name. Biden is a lot more middle of the road than Bernie. You can see that by how the far left cry he is on theright and a supporter of the rich over them ; and the right cry he is taking everyone to  "socialism"  The left have to face reality that the right is going to be kicking and screaming at any move towards a single payer, medicare for all. It has to be done a step at a time just as it has been done in every other western nation. Ours has been a work in progress since 1947 and it is still evolving with our right wing Conservatives trying to gut it and bring back private insurance, A lot of the attempts by the right to take us back are funded to  some extent by the US  private healthcare industry.

I must say I see a lot of Jimmy Dore Utubes posted up  in other forums I'm  in  and  they all twist the truth and facts  to  an ERW slant.  Dore , Carlson , Hannity  and most of Fox "news" are all as full  of it as a major stockyard

There are others that may have been  a better choice than Biden, but for the realists that see improvements to healthcare and other social issues can  only be achieved through middle of the road policies that neither too far left  at once nor allow the right to  continue as it  has. America has been  kept divided  and controlled by the military / industrial complex through their "anti-socialism"  rhetoric and scare tactics  for  the  last century.  Changing that  doesn't come swiftly or painlessly.  Americans have been  told the lies so long they are  very reluctant to  realize they are not the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JustRandy]

5 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Medicare for all is really Obamacare under another name.

That's like saying Biden is Trump under another name, which is actually more true than what you said.

Medicare for all (MFA) is 4% tax on income above $29k.  So if you make $29k or less, you pay nothing.  No co-pays, no deductibles, no bills, no nothing.  You just go to the doctor and that's it.

Obamacare (ACA) mandates you buy insurance which allows insurance companies to name their price since you have to buy it by law.  Wouldn't it be nice if the gov made everyone in the country buy your product?

ACA = Insurance company stocks go to the moon = rich people get richer.

MFA = Insurance companies go out of business = rich people get poorer.

The ave cost of insurance is $6000.

4% of ($179,000 -$29,000) = $6000.

MFA = Everyone making less than $179,000 will save money.  Someone making $1 million will pay $38,840.

ACA = Someone making $1 million will pay $6000.

So you can see that ACA puts all the burden on the middle class with high premiums while the rich profit.  MFA puts all the burden on the rich while the poor profit.

The ACA was designed specifically to prevent MFA from happening.  It is a republican plan originally called Romneycare where the intention is to provide at least something to the poor before the people get angry and demand socialized medicine.  What could be more evil?

Doctor #1 (Trump) will do nothing for you.

Doctor #2 (Biden) will do everything in his power to prevent you from getting a cure, but will give you an analgesic.

Why would you choose someone who promised to do everything in his power to prevent you from having the cure?  I'd rather have nothing at all than to have a stumbling block placed in my path.

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Biden is a lot more middle of the road than Bernie.

Biden exists specifically to stop Bernie.  Biden is Bernie's antithesis.

1,040,883,133 Reasons Why Bernie’s Supporters Will Never Support Joe Biden https://ridethefence.com/2020/04/09/1040883133-reasons-why-bernies-supporters-will-never-support-joe-biden-seriously-we-counted/

Warmonger: Biden advocated for war with Iraq long before 9/11 and supported the war in Afghanistan.

Racist: In the ’70s, he advocated for segregation, claiming the decision was based on “black pride.” He opposed busing as well, and has been called out on it many times over the years, even by Kamala Harris.

His choices disenfranchised at least 22,600,000 African Americans at the time. In 1977, he said that if desegregation isn’t done properly, his kids will end up having to grow up in “a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point.”

Prison-Industrial Complex Enthusiast:  He took it further in the mid ’90s, writing the The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. This bill hurt millions of Americans, although it disproportionately affected African Americans.

Ageist & Hater of Veterans: Innumerable attempts to cut funding for Social Security, Medicare, and veterans’ programs.

Anti-Choice Activist:  The Hyde Amendment, which prevents tax dollars from funding abortion, arguably prevents mainly poor women from receiving them. Although most democrats vocally denounce it, Biden retained his stance until recently.

Xenophobe:  From 2009 to 2016, Obama and Biden’s administration was responsible for overseeing the deportation of over 3,000,000 undocumented immigrants, averaging nearly 400,000 a year.

Godfather of Orwellian Surveillance of U.S. Citizens:  Biden wrote a bill in 1995, The Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, which was tailored to fit the “needs” of George W. Bush in 2001–it became The Patriot Act.

Staunch Supporter of Student Loan Debt:  Biden helped pass The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention And Consumer Protection Act of 2005. This bill not only made filing bankruptcy much more difficult, but it most notably removed student loans from erasable debt.

American Jobs Executioner:  Biden voted for NAFTA among other pathetic trade agreements.

How could Biden be more to the right???  Biden is even to the right of Trump.

We could give more reasons, but if this won’t convince you, nothing will. Just admit that you don’t care how terrible he is. Say it out loud for us:  “I don’t mind voting for a War criminal, Prison-industrial complex enthusiast, Racist, Ageist, Hater of veterans, Anti-choice activist, Xenophobe, Homophobe, Godfather of Orwellian surveillance of U.S. Citizens, Staunch supporter of student loan debt, American jobs executioner, Pedophile, Rapist, and Sundowner because I hate Trump so much."

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

It has to be done a step at a time

It cannot be done one step at a time because with each step the motivation to continue taking steps will decline.  The more people who have access to healthcare means there is less motivation to provide care to more people.

If there is 1 homeless person will the gov do anything?  How about 10?  100?  1000?  100,000?  How many homeless must exist before the gov will address the problem?  So the key is to keep the number of homeless right at the number where no one regards it as a problem.  100,000 homeless is probably acceptable, so there can never be motivation to reduce the number to zero.  Same with healthcare: the more people have it, the less motivation to provide more of it.  One step at a time is guaranteed not to work.

6 hours ago, davefrombc said:

I must say I see a lot of Jimmy Dore

Because he speaks the truth.

 

Biden "it provides 53 death penalty offenses... we do everything but hang people for jaywalking in this bill!"  I can't see Trump saying anything so sinister.

[davefrombc]

LOL  Jimmy Dore and the truth are not exactly compatible. I see your post as that of a true tRump  cultist.  If it makes you feel  any better , we have more than  our share of them  up  here too. Minds are made up, don't try confusing them  with facts and figures that don't fit their preconceptions.  As far as tRump not saying anything so  sinister as Biden's comment (taken  out of context) you haven't listened very closely to  many of his comments and actions, 

Many , if not most of the things Biden  has been falsely accused of both morally and legally have been presented against tRump  by witnesses and federal  investigation conclusions , but tRump  cannot be charged while in office thanks to the GOP's unproven slant on the Constitution. It will  be interesting if the "unindicted co-conspirator" will face charges for his actions in the last election and  for the many financial and business  practices he as been accused of not exactly sticking to  the law in.

[quadmaniac]

59 minutes ago, davefrombc said:

LOL  Jimmy Dore and the truth are not exactly compatible

You can’t really bend the truth behind the CSPAN video, Biden owns the crime bill and all what he pushed for during his career. It is what it is, I think most dems just bank on people not knowing that part of legislative history.
 

I’m curious what everything thinks about the NY POST Hunter Biden article that twitter and Facebook pulled: 

 

[JustRandy]

7 hours ago, davefrombc said:

As far as tRump not saying anything so  sinister as Biden's comment (taken  out of context) you haven't listened very closely to  many of his comments and actions, 

Biden "it provides 53 death penalty offenses... we do everything but hang people for jaywalking in this bill!" 

The context is people were saying the bill was not tough enough, so Biden described just how tough it is by bragging how it provides 53 new ways to kill people for trivial crimes as the "hang people for jaywalking" metaphor alluded to.

What has Trump said that is comparable to creating 53 new ways to kill people?

I'm no giant fan of Trump, but one thing I liked was his pardoning that woman who was locked up (for life I think) for cocaine possession, probably as part of Biden's crime bill... all while Biden's son is the biggest cokehead on the planet.

8 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Jimmy Dore and the truth are not exactly compatible.

I challenge you to find something Jimmy said that is not true.  I'd expect you'd be excited to substantiate your accusation and seize the opportunity to drag Jimmy through the mud.

8 hours ago, davefrombc said:

I see your post as that of a true tRump  cultist.

Aversion to facts is a symptom of TDS.  I've had TDS myself and it can be pretty brutal.  Biden winning the nom and causing me to have to support Trump cured me.

8 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Many , if not most of the things Biden  has been falsely accused of both morally and legally have been presented against tRump

How do you know the accusations are false?

Whataboutism is no justification for Biden's actions.  There are plenty of bad things to say about Trump but none of it excuses Biden and it's beside the point that Biden exists specifically to stop Bernie, progressives, medicare for all, and any help for the people in order to protect the rich which is the greatest evil I can imagine.  Trump is mainly just out for himself and greed is far less evil than specifically trying to hold people down so the rich can profit.

Biden's wars, drug war, prisons are just mechanisms to get rid of "superfluous people" in lieu of providing jobs or welfare.  Herd them into slums where they prey on each other until they're arrested for drugs and put to work for the state for 5 cents per hour.  Alternatively they could join the military where they're sent to die in needless wars that only exist to make the industrial military complex richer.  So yeah, 53 new ways to kill people is right up Biden's alley.

[JustRandy]

7 hours ago, quadmaniac said:

I’m curious what everything thinks about the NY POST Hunter Biden article that twitter and Facebook pulled: 

I can't find any reason to doubt it.

You may like this guy Mike Rivero  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbXZVzTsVfs

He's usually good for a levelheaded analysis.

[Jarheadgreasemonkey]

Will be voting for Trump, but as a Libertarian, I really pick the lesser of evils at every election...

 

Sad state we're in. 

[davefrombc]

Please explain to this Canadian how anyone can support the most incompetent and corrupt individual to ever hold the Presidency of the U. S. of A.

I cannot understand how he can hold such a cult as he has worshiping him.

 

[davefrombc]

3 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Please explain to this Canadian how anyone can support the most incompetent and corrupt individual to ever hold the Presidency of the U. S. of A.

I cannot understand how he can hold such a cult as he has worshiping him.

 

I meant to include this video with my request for an explanation of just how anyone can support him with all the evidence and his own words and actions supporting the accusations against him. It's only his tenure in the White House keeping him from facing charges for many things, including his "unindicted co-conspirator" charge in the 2016 election corruption.  The real  "fake news" comes from Fox and other right wing and extreme right sites on the internet. November 3 is fast approaching . Think  long and hard before you vote; but get out there and vote either for or against tRump and his enablers. Make you voice heard where it counts.

https://youtu.be/NX-DdOUlcqs

 

[JustRandy]

3 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Please explain to this Canadian how anyone can support the most incompetent and corrupt individual to ever hold the Presidency of the U. S. of A.

I think most are mainly voting against Biden.  I already tried explaining how bad Biden is, but you won't listen.  And I already said you were right about Trump years ago on the other thread, so you know I'm fair-minded and can admit when I'm wrong, but I don't feel like you're reciprocating.  Trump is like a loose cannon rolling around on deck crashing into things, but Biden is specifically intent on sinking the ship.  That's the best way I can sum up our choices.  So if you say Trump is incompetent, then I say that's a good thing.  If he were competent then I might worry.

[quadmaniac]

7 hours ago, davefrombc said:

Please explain to this Canadian how anyone can support the most incompetent and corrupt individual to ever hold the Presidency of the U. S. of A.

I'll try...since Trump was elected:

• My 401K is up, we don't have pension plans and you cant live on Social Security
• My income is up and taxes are down
• Business in general is up and if it weren't for covid and shut downs, the economy would continue to put up record setting numbers and low unemployment in all segments
• The company I work for is in a "business friendly" environment, lower corporate tax and is making money, which means I and others have a job and more people get hired (the gov cant employ everyone, so you have to have a prospering private sector in this country, which is what most people forget) 
• Energy independence brings lower gas prices and lower home heating oil. I recall during Obama paying $3.99 for heating oil, its now $1.89....Does anyone remember the gas prices during Obama/Biden? Does anyone know what a gallon or even a liter of gas costs in other countries? Try looking into that and see if you want to pay that at the pump...Everyone drive electric? Yeah right. What do you do with the thousands of gas stations and all those cars? No way.
• Trump is just much more "business friendly" and this country is all about money and business (small and large). Without it..it all goes away. People fail to realize how it is in other countries... we have all these choices in this country and the ability to get pretty much anything. That can all go away if business cannot prosper. 
• I like an America first agenda, its about time...This shift to more and more globalization and interconnection, it only helps countries that need something from others and not so much the countries everyone relies on. 
• Oh yeah...a vote for Biden is pretty much putting Harris in the oval office because Biden has some serious age showing...people see that and you can't ignore it. He looks too old and has some cognitive issue going on. Its sad how much he's aged, his turn was taken by Hillary.  

I would not be surprised if this Hunter Biden stuff blows up on him, especially if by some chance he gets elected. If he actually wins it'll be a reason to impeach him and put Harris in. I would not be surprised to see that at all. 

 

[davefrombc]

Biden suffers from the same kind of attacks and false accusation from the right ,and I have no  doubt certain  foreign operators.

Loose cannons rolling around on deck crashing into things have resulted in more than one sunk ship. I definitely don't share your view of Biden or what you think his agenda is.  I know enough of the workings of our respective governments to  know a lot te accusations against him use statements taken  out of context to try to blame him for things done by Congress and the Senate that he had no real  control of even though he was supposed to be steering the legislation. ..it's the polls in the Congress and Senate that determine the final  wording and results, no  matter how he or any other committee head would like to see it go.  For example Obama care would have been far different than what you got if there had not been so  many concessions and changes made to  the right and far right ruling the GOP just to  get even  that flawed First step towards the universal health care enjoyed by the rest of the Western world.  I won't bother to try to debate you Quadmaniac. I see your version of the last 4 years is very different than most others. and compared to what is happening  and has happened in the US in the last 4 years the rest of the west is doing very well. I'll take our COVID statistics and responses over those under tRump  any day. Oil prices are governed by international markets , not by anything tRump  or the US oil industry  has done  for another example. I'll leave it at that .

[quadmaniac]

1 hour ago, davefrombc said:

Biden suffers from the same kind of attacks and false accusation from the right ,and I have no  doubt certain  foreign operators.

I can understand and appreciate that but a laptop dropped off at a computer repair shop in Delaware? Just goes to show you that these repair shops will look through your files..lol. Then you have his American business partner confirming it all? Its kind of hard to overlook that. If that were Trump, all hell would break loose and all the left leaning news media outlets would blast it on their programs daily, looking to impeach him again. You don't even need a dossier for this one. You have to ask, how has Biden made all his money and who is he connected to? For all the liberals that hate rich people, do they hate Hunter Biden for making millions with no experience? 

I'd rather Trump who donates his presidential salary every year and is business minded. He's far from perfect, but a much better choice. At least businesses will do good, people will have more money, sales will go up in stores which equates to more hiring, more growth, entrepreneurship, low unemployment, bonuses, job opportunity, etc. You can't grow the private sector when you stifle it with Obamacare and regulations, its not been good. Trump removed Obama-era regulations. Now, for those that are not business minded, check out some countries where independently owned businesses struggle and see how they live...Its pretty simple, this is a capitalist society and business prosperity is what makes it all work. Work hard, get more and achieve your dreams...that's the basic principle. Nothing is ever free.

Here's the shop where Hunter's laptop was, you telling me its Russian or Chinese owned disinformation? Its as local as it gets, been around since 2010.

[davefrombc]

I doubt Hunter Biden would have been stupid enough to drop a laptop off for repair if it contained evidence of wrongdoing on his part. Would you?

tRump is not the businessman he makes himself out to be. The proof of that may not be long in coming.

tRump's donating his presidential salary is a red herring. He is making far more than that steering government events trough his businesses.The money he makes staying in his own facilities and charging the security that must accompany far exceeds his salary; and then there are the other costs for his far too frequent golfing trips at his own facilities.

I know how we live in our country with universal  health care and environmental regulations. The rest of the west would also very likely compare themselves very favourably with the US also. 

You really need to seek better information on life and standards of living in western countries outside the US. One example you might compare is our cost in taxes to support our "free" health care with the real cost in premiums, co-pays and other costs of your for profit system.

 

finally you must realize there are no truly communist countries no matter how you want to  name their systems. Every business is capitalist whether privately or government owned. Even  China operates on a capitalist system despite their communist tag; and no, I would not want to live under their government controls. They try to physically control what the west largely  controls with the almighty dollar.

Every service the government supplies is a form of socialism. You confuse social responsibility with socialism. If you are a Christian you are worshiping someone who  was a far left "socialist" in  his teachings. Without socialism you would have to  build your own roads, maintain your own security, health and welfare and exist without the help  of any other person. as soon  as you form a community and divide responsibilities you are instituting socialism.

 

 

[quadmaniac]

@davefrombc, its amazing that you think there is no way his laptops ended up at that repair store...lol. The owner of the store already testified to it last year and the FBI has them. To your points, which I highly (but respectfully) disagree with, I would just say that any "hint" of Socialism restricts freedom and freedom is a founding principle of this country. The US will never be like other countries which is why it remains the US. 

Thank you for taking the time to post and explain your views. Even if I disagree, I do enjoy seeing other points of view.

[JustRandy]

@quadmaniac  I remember car batteries were $70 and one day I walked into an autozone and saw batteries were $300 and said "OMG what happened to the price of batteries?"  Everyone in the store said in unison "Obama!"

$300 batteries, $4 gas, obamacare... why would anyone want to go back to that?

And don't forget Biden is doing everything but banning guns.  His gun page is a mile long.  https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/

[JustRandy]

8 hours ago, davefrombc said:

I definitely don't share your view of Biden or what you think his agenda is.

They rigged the primary to undermine Bernie and get Biden in there.  What do you not understand about that?  Biden exists specifically to stop Canada-style healthcare.  Period.

Trump is just bumbling around and isn't setting up stumbling blocks to socialized medicine.  On the contrary, Trump is trying to get the stumbling block ruled unconstitutional so there is no choice but medicare for all.

8 hours ago, davefrombc said:

For example Obama care would have been far different than what you got if there had not been so  many concessions and changes made to  the right

Obamacare = Romenycare = A RIGHT WING PLAN.  What do you not understand about that?

Everything Biden will do is designed to stop everything you think should be done.  That's why wallstreet and billionaires support him.

No wonder Canada is heading to the right because you people are totally blind.

And it's really funny that Trump now has Bernie campaigning for him:

 

[Jarheadgreasemonkey]

Like momma always said...

 

Quote

If you wanna keep friends; never discuss politics or religion!

 

[JustRandy]

4 hours ago, davefrombc said:

I doubt Hunter Biden would have been stupid enough to drop a laptop off for repair if it contained evidence of wrongdoing on his part. Would you?

If I were the crackhead son of a VP, yeah maybe.  Is he in jail?  Nope.  So what's dumb about it?  Hunter can get away with anything so why does he need to live in reality?  Laws only apply to regular people.

[JustRandy]

Just now, Jarheadgreasemonkey said:

Like momma always said...

Good fences make good neighbors because friends are often just enemies who don't know it yet.

[quadmaniac]

50 minutes ago, JustRandy said:

$300 batteries, $4 gas, obamacare... why would anyone want to go back to that?

I have no idea, I definitely want no part of that. Obama has been on the campaign trail this week saying Trump inherited the economy, what a joke. Obama was the most non-business friendly President in decades. Good rid-ends! I cringe hearing him, speak. I used to have company sponsored healthcare with with no deductibles and a $25 copay. After Obamacare, it went to 30% coinsurance after the $3000 or so deductible is met for the same price. So now a few visits to the doctor costs $100-$125 per visit. Oh and BTW in 2020..no more "out of network". Company sponsored insurances went down after obamacare because rates went up to these companies. Did Obama think companies would just pay more? They need to remain profitable to stay in business and offer jobs, its a basic principle...lower corp tax, the more they can do. 

I get it, some were uninsured because they don't work for a company or business to get healthcare, but taking care of them really hurt the middle class that DOESN'T work for what I like to call a "tax-based" job, where tax revenue pays for their fed, state, or local gov job in a municipality, school district or other type of agency that still has good healthcare and pensions in most cases. All obamacare did is hurt the private sector. There are not enough "tax-based" jobs for all Americans, so you need big and small business, otherwise everyone is working for or relying on government in some shape or form, at which point you might as well say good buy to America as we know it. Obamacare essentially caused rates to go up on the middle class to take care of the lower class with medical...yeah that was just great. I'm for the harder and more you work, the more you get and not get punished. What's the pointy really, might as well find some government program and assistance to sit on and just coast through life with my hand out.

The only thing I'm not happy about with Trump is that he has not been able to do anything around healthcare that is felt by people like me. We are stuck with this obamacare crap.

Edited October 28, 2020 by quadmaniac

[Jarheadgreasemonkey]

10 minutes ago, quadmaniac said:

I have no idea, I definitely want no part of that. Obama has been on the campaign trail this week saying Trump inherited the economy, what a joke. Obama was the most non-business friendly President in decades. Good rid-ends! I cringe hearing him, speak. I used to have company sponsored healthcare with with no deductibles and a $25 copay. After Obamacare, it went to 30% coinsurance after the $3000 or so deductible is met for the same price. So now a few visits to the doctor costs $100-$125 per visit. Oh and BTW in 2020..no more "out of network". Company sponsored insurances went down after obamacare because rates went up to these companies. Did Obama think companies would just pay more? They need to remain profitable to stay in business and offer jobs, its a basic principle...lower corp tax, the more they can do. 

I get it, some were uninsured because they don't work for a company or business to get healthcare, but taking care of them really hurt the middle class that DOESN'T work for what I like to call a "tax-based" job, where tax revenue pays for their fed, state, or local gov job in a municipality, school district or other type of agency that still has good healthcare and pensions in most cases. All obamacare did is hurt the private sector. There are not enough "tax-based" jobs for all Americans, so you need big and small business, otherwise everyone is working for or relying on government in some shape or form, at which point you might as well say good buy to America as we know it. Obamacare essentially caused rates to go up on the middle class to take care of the lower class with medical...yeah that was just great. I'm for the harder and more you work, the more you get and not get punished. What's the pointy really, might as well find some government program and assistance to sit on and just coast through life with my hand out.

The only thing I'm not happy about with Trump is that he has not been able to do anything around healthcare that is felt by people like me. We are stuck with this obamacare crap.

[JustRandy]

40 minutes ago, quadmaniac said:

Obamacare essentially caused rates to go up on the middle class to take care of the lower class

Bingo!

If you want to take care of the poor, the rich ain't gonna pay for it and it will be on the backs of the middle class.  It's that way all across Europe and it's what the Yellow Vests were protesting.

Bloomberg is spending billions trying to get Biden elected to get Obamacare back because the people are demanding some solution to healthcare and he doesn't want to pay for it with Medicare For All.

[davefrombc]

Business taxes pay a big part of our universal health care but so do income taxes. It is not all on businesses.

It's useless trying to explain the  fact that health care expenses for both business and individuals is actually cheaper in our universal systems than it is under your for profit system,  The brainwashing the military/ industrial complex and the ERW have been  giving Americans for the last century has  been far too effective.  Too bad there are too few  who remember the tax system of the late '40's through to  the beginning of the '60's that actually encouraged businesses and the rich to  invest in the US and the boom  it created.  Those days are long gone. They started going away with  business's "tax reforms" and really accelerated with Reagan  and the decline continues with the rich getting richer and the erosion  of the middle class those "reforms"  have created.

But of course all that is fake news to the true believers.

[Ajmboy]

I am only going to jump into this on the medical part because I too have company provided health insurance and agree with @quadmaniac. Just got a bill from the doctor for an outpatient visit in August for my daughter after we went to the beach and she got knocked over by a big wave. She was ok, but wanted to have her checked out. The pediatric office visit was $211 and after my insurance it came to out of pocket $141.  Used to be $25-30 copay before Obamacare. That's a real world example right now. I have to meet a $4000 deductible and then my insurance will cover everything. So what I do now is have my insurance and also an HSA for these medical bills like this. I know that a sneeze or cough to the doctor will be over $140 each time. My regular doctor costs me $110 out of pocket. Crazy, right?  Physicals and vaccines are free.

Flip side, my relative who works off the books part time and part time in a very low paying job, gets medical for almost nothing. I work hard and get nailed, how is that right?